Anders Behring Breivik | 2083 A European Declaration of Independence | Manifesto

Claimed Manifesto relating to the Oslo Bombings/Shootings.

UPDATE, July 28th, 10am – It has started showing up, in the foreign press mostly, that Breivik was in contact with me. It was clearly stated multiple times where and when I found this document online. I had not heard of or been in contact with Breivik or this document before his terrorist actions in Norway. 

—————

UPDATE July 25th 7:20pm.

A reader has sent the following:
>> Hi – why did you remove the list of contents from the 2083 manifesto when
>> you made a pdf from it? I’ve seen people make a point out of the fact that
>> the manifesto doesn’t have such a list, and make conclusions about his
>> psyche based on that. They should know that this detail is actually your
>> work, and not his.
I made it clear on the orig blog post that I created a PDF from the orig. file, but many people were linked directly to the PDF here or on my GoogleDocs where I uploaded it when my site went down due to traffic.

I did nothing to alter it, but I did not check it against the orig. file to see if there was any difference. I should have posted the orig. doc. file in the initial post, but I didn’t. I’m not a journalist and nobody is paying me for my time and efforts. I am paying out of pocket to host the file and I am not looking for reward (but proper attribution is appreciated).

I’m also now getting some very threatening comments telling me to take the document down and that I’m some how morally complicit in a crime. This is unfortunate, but not unexpected. I have less to fear from people who “think bad thoughts” than from people who want to “enforce good thoughts at any expense”.

UPDATE July 24th 5:00pm.

Most news sources say this is authentic. I’m glad that I was able to help bring a clue to the table, and have done my best not to editorialize on this event, but to just act as a source for others to deconstruct, spin and whatever else.
At this point I’ve had over 100,000 hits to my website in the last 48 hours, one that normally sees 50 to 150 in a day. We’re getting quite a few comments now as well, so I thought I’d type out the following:

  • I will not ask for people to be reasonable, those that are will be.
  • I will not ask for people to consider before speaking, those who are inconsiderate were so before this.
  • I will not ask people to not make false claims, opportunistic liars who agreed would only be lying.
  • I will not ask people to refrain from what I think are bad jokes or tut-tut them for worrying about something that seems far less important, it’s solipsistic. Tragedies impact people differently, and those that live have their own struggles.
  • I will not ask opportunistic scumbags looking to pimp a website not to do so, as I don’t ever expect leopards to lose their spots merely because I ask.

Instead, if you’re an asshole, I’ll just delete your message. I love freedom of speech and will respect a wide range of views, but this is “my house”.

“When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.” -ASL

————

UPDATE July 23rd 7:17pm ET! I haven’t been able to edit this website for hours now. It’s been slammed with traffic and down most of the time but I spoke to my webhost and it seems to be running quickly now…
More qualified men (and women) than I believe this is the real deal.
Mainstream news sources are confirming it. 

For the record, I first saw/downloaded a .docx of the manifesto at 1:54pm ET, Posted it as PDF at 2:38pm ET. I converted it to a PDF because many people can’t use .docx files.
My site went down because of heavy traffic and at 5:05pm ET I put a mirror up on my google docs account. The site was back up by 7:00pm.

Original post below:
——————————

UNVERIFIED! I AM NOT CLAIMING THIS AS AUTHENTIC, I found it via a sketchy link. It was a Docx file and I exported to PDF so it was more easily viewed by a larger number of people.

I sat down and tried to figure out possible problems:
1. written entirely in English
2. Authorship attributed to “Andrew Berwick” (is this an Anglicized version of his name?)
3. Photos of Breivik tacked on to the end of the document make no sense.
4. It is a compilation of existing writings easily found on the web.

As seen in the Document.no text, Breivik used the e-mail address year2083@gmail.com and people are wondering what this cryptic refernce it to. It’s possible that it’s to this:

2083+-+A+European+Declaration+of+Independence.pdf

In the Document.no text he says:

Fjordman,
I have worked full time for more than three years oriented toward practical solutions (key notes written in English). My position is to contribute to areas that are on the side of current main focus. Much of the information I am dealing it is unknown to most people, even to you.
If you send me an e-mail to year2083@gmail.com I will send you an electronic version once I’m finished.

He does say “in English”, so that lines up.

The authorship is attributed to:

By Andrew Berwick, London – 2011

But this could be an Anglicized version of Anders Brevik?

Again, the video associated with this manifesto is found here: http://www.kevinislaughter.com/2011/2083-manifesto-and-movie-real-or-not/

It’s also possible that the author (Berwick) is trying to get some attention for his manifesto by riding on the back of this tragedy.

There are photos of Breivik tacked on to the end of the document in a nonsensical way, or, in a way that makes sense if this was a crass move to get a lot of free promotion. Or if someone who was against the author/author’s opinions to instantly associate him with this mass murder.

 

 

Related posts:

  1. Anders Behring Breivik | Is this the e-mail he sent to friends with 2083 Manifesto?
  2. Anders Behring Breivik | 2083 Manifesto and Movie: Real or Not?
  3. Anders Behring Breivik | Probable facebook/twitter pages of Oslo bomber/gunner
  4. Anders Behring Breivik’s comments with Document.no (Translated)
  • Anki Hagberg

    Andrew Berwick and Anders Behring Breivik is the same person. If you read all of his rantings on document.no you’ll find that he mentions many of the things there as he does in this video. In a message dated Dec 2, 2009 on document.no he explains that for the last three years he has been working fulltime on a culture conservative project that will contribute to develope and market the seven political doctrines of the Vienna school of thought. He then says: “By the way, the book’s name is 2083 and is in English. 1100 pages”. He then goes on telling what the Vienna school of thought doctrines areall about. Anti Islamism is one of them.
    The first picture of him at the end of the video shows him in a freemason outfit. (He was a member but has now been excluded). The second photo is truly horrifying as it most likely shows him with the rifle he used to kill as those young people.

  • Chouse

    Yes. It is the same person. I am 99% sure. I have spent a couple of hours going through this now. It looks authentic. If you flip to page 1422, there are even details matching Breivik’s profile. He’s claiming it. It is very compatible with other web entries he writes, style of writing, content – right down to the “:)” that he puts at the end of sentences. It’s also compatible with this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOfH8Dj1mw

    It is an amalgamation of different sources yes. (Melanie Phillips from the Daily Mail even gets a look in on page 376-378). But he speaks English. We know that – as he has contact with the EDL etc.

  • Chouse

    Yes. It is the same person. I am 99% sure. I have spent a couple of hours going through this now. It looks authentic. If you flip to page 1422, there are even details matching Breivik’s profile. He’s claiming it. It is very compatible with other web entries he writes, style of writing, content – right down to the “:)” that he puts at the end of sentences. It’s also compatible with this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOfH8Dj1mw

    It is an amalgamation of different sources yes. (Melanie Phillips from the Daily Mail even gets a look in on page 376-378). But he speaks English. We know that – as he has contact with the EDL etc.

    • Anki Hagberg, Sweden

      The Norwegian newspaper “Verdens gang” says that document.no now has revealed that Breiviks manifest is – in a very large part – a direct copy of the Unabomber’s. Just some words have been changed.

      • Anki Hagberg, Sweden
        • Son of Anders

          You should read both manifestos, before popping off with facts that you get from the interweb.  Breivick replicated passages 6 through 23 of the Unabomber’s manifesto.  A grand total of two pages where he explains the Psychology of Cultural Marxists in a segment where he cites over one hundred different essays on Cultural Marxism.  The unabomber’s manifesto is 46 pages long.  Breivick’s manifesto is well over 1,500.

      • JonkiHorbirg

        please dude, learn to read before you write nonsense.  It is not even remotely the same.  hahaha.. what a laugh.  Some people really believe everything because some website says so.  Big Wikipedia fan and the likes of it, are you?

  • Deepforwar

    Why this location? Is this business location? Terror is bad. I don’t want to die in some moron action.

    But, lately those changes are make people to think of why do we have to band our spins for some jewish pricks running world as their company of mass destroy production.Fuck them, better leave in PEACE and RESPECT. Their motions are terrible too…Guys, remember bad makes bad.

    Talk now to relatives of whom died in your mind.

    • Parsi

      The location was because it was “Arbeiderpartiets (AP)” Building. a political group which is FOR multicultural society. and the Island was were the children was attached to this group and unfortunatly were killed because they were on the same side as AP.

      • deepforwar

        Want multiculture? Go to Canada. Old World should be populated by native european people.

    • Nakamoomin

      the government square was bombed, because the socialist party is in power. The second attack was towards the socialist party youth summer camp. He hated socialism and multiculturalism, which have been key issues for the socialist party (AP) for the last 50 years. They also have great influence in Norway, so he blamed them for the way the society had developed. 

    • ThaFertilizerTorrent

      to Deepforwar: If you want to protect yourself against moronic action – as you call it – the recipe is simple: don’t betray your people and country, and you will be relatively safe. ;-) ;-P
      PS. oh, and don’t park you car in front of left-wing-ruled government buildings, they tend to get instantly fertilized sometimes. 

      • deepforwar

        Many are saying this guy is zionist and he was working for mossad? Is this true?

      • deepforwar

        Never betraid is very true! I hope many understand this statement

    • ThaFertilizerTorrent

      to Deepforwar: If you want to protect yourself against moronic action – as you call it – the recipe is simple: don’t betray your people and country, and you will be relatively safe. ;-) ;-P
      PS. oh, and don’t park you car in front of left-wing-ruled government buildings, they tend to get instantly fertilized sometimes. 

  • http://twitter.com/ahm Avery

    How was this book found? If it had been discovered before today it could have saved lives. #N2083

    • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

      He posted it online right before his crimes… 

      • AndrewM

        Yes, the last modified date of the Word document is 22/07/2011, 11:23:00, only a few hours before the car bomb in Oslo went off.

      • AndrewM

        Yes, the last modified date of the Word document is 22/07/2011, 11:23:00, only a few hours before the car bomb in Oslo went off.

  • Concerned

    You should really consider whether further spreading his hate-filled terrorist handbook is a responsible thing to do.

    • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

      There is not a truth existing which I fear… or would wish unknown to the whole world.Thomas Jefferson

    • NOTICE

      I want to ask you a question- how do you ever now if you are right or not? How do you know what is truth and what is false? Let me answer this for you- You NEVER know, which is why you always have to keep and value all the reliable information and time line. Every point of view of facts always counts. And hiding something because of what masses think is ‘wrong’ is just incredibly stupid and could bring suffering/misunderstandings in the future. So I thank Kevin I. Slaughter a lot for posting this file, it has been an amazing and interesting read, not saying I support the guy 100% and his actions though, but well, I bet there are hundreds of thousands of people that can relate to him(including me) to a certain extent, but won’t admit it, even just a little bit, while he committed such terrible crimes to be heard. He is radical, and surely many things are still questionable, but ahh, well, I hope that people now will just speak up- not hide and plan such terrible things in the future. 

      LIBERTY, fuck yeah

    • NOTICE

      I want to ask you a question- how do you ever now if you are right or not? How do you know what is truth and what is false? Let me answer this for you- You NEVER know, which is why you always have to keep and value all the reliable information and time line. Every point of view of facts always counts. And hiding something because of what masses think is ‘wrong’ is just incredibly stupid and could bring suffering/misunderstandings in the future. So I thank Kevin I. Slaughter a lot for posting this file, it has been an amazing and interesting read, not saying I support the guy 100% and his actions though, but well, I bet there are hundreds of thousands of people that can relate to him(including me) to a certain extent, but won’t admit it, even just a little bit, while he committed such terrible crimes to be heard. He is radical, and surely many things are still questionable, but ahh, well, I hope that people now will just speak up- not hide and plan such terrible things in the future. 

      LIBERTY, fuck yeah

    • NOTICE

      I want to ask you a question- how do you ever now if you are right or not? How do you know what is truth and what is false? Let me answer this for you- You NEVER know, which is why you always have to keep and value all the reliable information and time line. Every point of view of facts always counts. And hiding something because of what masses think is ‘wrong’ is just incredibly stupid and could bring suffering/misunderstandings in the future. So I thank Kevin I. Slaughter a lot for posting this file, it has been an amazing and interesting read, not saying I support the guy 100% and his actions though, but well, I bet there are hundreds of thousands of people that can relate to him(including me) to a certain extent, but won’t admit it, even just a little bit, while he committed such terrible crimes to be heard. He is radical, and surely many things are still questionable, but ahh, well, I hope that people now will just speak up- not hide and plan such terrible things in the future. 

      LIBERTY, fuck yeah

    • FritzDeelman

      it certainly is.  It is called freedom of speech – or writing, for that matter.  The alternative is book-burning.. make your pick, and stop being so overly ‘politically correct’, dear ‘Concerned’.  When afraid, simply stay indoors, and don’t open the door when someone shouts ‘jetzt aufmachen!’ ;-)

  • Norway4all

    his hope, as stated, is that enough people will be frightened enough to be capable to understand what he is trying to say in this socalled manifesto.. i call it rubbish, the work of a mad man, but some say “potatoe”.. anyway. by spreading this file, you are actually doing his work as he requests. he initiated those horrible actions to frighten people into searching his work for answers, he says so himself in the manifesto, so an idea of what he calls a better europe can be formed.. so as long as you keep this file available, you are not better than him. but i think you know that. since you work for him..

    • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

      “There is not a truth existing which I fear… or would wish unknown to the whole world.” -Thomas Jefferson
      Hiding away “bad words” does not stop people from having bad thoughts or committing bad deeds.

    • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

      “There is not a truth existing which I fear… or would wish unknown to the whole world.” -Thomas Jefferson
      Hiding away “bad words” does not stop people from having bad thoughts or committing bad deeds.

      • http://www.amerika.org/ Brett Stevens

        The point of this tragedy is that white people, through political correctness, crushed discourse on their own demise.

        People want to talk about what’s happening to Europe. Europeans want to be European, not mixed-race and cultureless. Most Americans, white or black, feel the same way.

        Nobody wants to become The Gray Race.

        Berwick targeted those who stifle discourse on rising European nationalism: the European left.

        It doesn’t make sense to blame Muslims in Europe, or blacks and Hispanics in America, for the crisis of diversity.

        Diversity itself is the problem. Diversity — of any form: religion, class, race, ethnic group, even values — is destructive. The Romans and Greeks both found this out. As their empires grew, they experimented with diversity. It was at its peak when they collapsed.

        The great modern illusion is that diversity and equality are parts of a functional society and make us morally superior. The truth is that they are a dance of death and make us delusional.

        Those who advocate them do not care. They are too busy preening for the cameras, and looking “compassionate” for their pity towards those of third-world races. They are using racial equality, civil rights, etc. as a means of making themselves powerful.

        In the USA, Democrats have imported voters in the form of third-worlders. These never vote Republican and so guarantee Democratic power.

        In Europe, the oligarchs and plutocrats are importing Muslims (mainly) of Arab descent in order to obliterate national culture and fulfill their dream of one European commercial union. Culture gets in the way of commerce.

        Brave men like Andrew Berwick and Ted Kaczynski stand up against this process. I may not agree with their methods, but I like their willingness to address the topics that so many dishonest people are trying to hide.

        • http://www.screwliberals.com Jenn of the Jungle

          Interesting.

        • A dangerous Muslim, bouh !

          “The great modern illusion is that diversity and equality are parts of a functional society and make us morally superior.”

          Mhh … no equality ? You mean, like when we judge people inequally based on their race ? (The R-word, y’know :) )

          • Kevin.

            He is absolutely right. “Equality” is nothing more than a front for the opression of the white man. It’s the truth, look around you. They say all peoples go through hard times. The jews, the blacks, the females, the gays; all of these people are now prospering. It would seem now it is time for the white male to go through hard times–and if we shout our ideals then it is racist and fascist–but on the other hand if we were to confront an different group about being too out-spoken about their beliefs then again, we are racist and fascist—we have to allow gays to parade in the streets protesting their sexuality. These people PREACH “EQUALITY”, but look for one second with open eyes and you will see SUPERIORITY. It used to be a white mans world, but not anymore.

          • Johnny Redd

            There were about 1 million White slaves in North Africa between 1500 and 1750. Who championed their freedom? You ever hear of a people calling for an end to White slavery? The selective criticism of White people (or political correctness) is precisely what is freaking guys like this out.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FNWK5IQUFNOTBHBJW2XEJOESME John Lee

            No, what is freaking him out is the demographics of Europe. Europe has a declining population [read-White people are dwindling in number], and at the same time Liberals are importing millions of non-Europeans into Europe each and every year. Simple math will tell you that it wont take long for the White population of Europe to be reduced to a minority, and for it to eventually be replaced by the immigrant population.

            He even keynotes the above, by comparing Europe to Japan and Korea. Both of those countries are first world just like Norway is. And millions of poor Somalians would LOVE to move there…But the Korean and Japanese governments wont allow immigration. Those countries are open about why to – immigration will lead to the Japanese being a minority in Japan sooner or later if they allowed immigration.

            So this man is freaking about a very real situation which is happening today and has been happening since the 1970s. Just for reference, Norway was ~99.9% Native Norwegian in the 1960s, today it is 10% foreign born and the percent of Non Ethnic Norwegian is even higher [15-20%]. So 1/5th of Norway is already Non Norwegian, that number is only going to increase as time goes on and not go down – that is what freaked him out – and he blamed the liberals for allowing it to happen – hence he killed liberals on the island.

            I dont condone his muderous actions but his view that immigration is “replacing” native Norwegians is solidly rooted in fact.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FNWK5IQUFNOTBHBJW2XEJOESME John Lee

            No, what is freaking him out is the demographics of Europe. Europe has a declining population [read-White people are dwindling in number], and at the same time Liberals are importing millions of non-Europeans into Europe each and every year. Simple math will tell you that it wont take long for the White population of Europe to be reduced to a minority, and for it to eventually be replaced by the immigrant population.

            He even keynotes the above, by comparing Europe to Japan and Korea. Both of those countries are first world just like Norway is. And millions of poor Somalians would LOVE to move there…But the Korean and Japanese governments wont allow immigration. Those countries are open about why to – immigration will lead to the Japanese being a minority in Japan sooner or later if they allowed immigration.

            So this man is freaking about a very real situation which is happening today and has been happening since the 1970s. Just for reference, Norway was ~99.9% Native Norwegian in the 1960s, today it is 10% foreign born and the percent of Non Ethnic Norwegian is even higher [15-20%]. So 1/5th of Norway is already Non Norwegian, that number is only going to increase as time goes on and not go down – that is what freaked him out – and he blamed the liberals for allowing it to happen – hence he killed liberals on the island.

            I dont condone his muderous actions but his view that immigration is “replacing” native Norwegians is solidly rooted in fact.

          • ArneBaillu

            Correct, correct, correct.

          • ArneBaillu

            Correct, correct, correct.

          • ArneBaillu

            Correct, correct, correct.

        • Black Pig

          Righteous. What’s so fucking profound about Breivik’s ideas is that it’s political correctness that forces people to go to extremes to get the attention they often deserve. His is by far the most reflexive manifesto I’ve ever encountered.

          • Patrik

            So he “deserved” attention? Says who? You?
            I say he deserves very little attention. Apart from analyzing the sick mind of a psyco.

          • Sonia

            His writings are anything but the rantings of a sick mind.  The only difference between Anders Breivik and those who share his opinions about liberalism and multiculturalism, is that we haven’t been pushed far enough.  And when the day comes when we are pushed far enough, there wil be a revolt the likes of which have never been encountered in the history of the world.  But then again, this was the plain of the Marxist plotters against the West  as far back as the 1950’s.  It is a 4 stage process called ideological subversion that results in civil war and unrest (this is called by the Marxist liberals.

          • Crudhouse

            I don’t know whether this was all marxist plotting.  What I do know is that it goes along pretty well with the cause and effect law of karma.

            Spend 500 years killing, subverting and stealing around the world and there’ll be a backlash from the people who suffered from it.

            My recommendation, though, is that if you can’t be sure to kill everyone off…try not creating more bad karma.  That way at least you won’t see the effects of karma…it’ll come to you in a way you’ve never even thought about.

        • JosTroumain

          well said, well written!  You have a very clear view on things. 

        • Blice One

          Perhaps you would think that inbreeding is the solution then? 
          I see a lot of people saying that “pluriculturalism” has failed in Europe, yet there are, i believe, a number of immigrant successful integration. Saying that white europeans should remain white europeans is like nostalgia. Andrew Berwick is not a brave man. He is a lost soul who clings to a 2-cents ideaology to justify what he has done. As the world gets “smaller”, the cultural and ethnical melting-pot is increasing exponentially. I think trying to fight this is foolish.

          I am half-french, half vietnamese myself. Does that make me a person with no culture or one of both culture?

      • Sonia

        Spoken like a true American.  Ironically, some Americans dishonor those who fought for our 1st amendment right to free speech by censoring.  To me, the truth should never be censored, only propaganda.

        • Sonia

          I do believe, however, that propaganda and lies should be censored.  That would include most of the American media these days.

          • Crudhouse

            Mmmmm…propaganda = ideas pushed by a group with a mode for pushing it.  Free speech, but no propaganda?  How did you manage that dichotomy?

    • Alainke

      I can relate and understand your anger towards the manifesto, but throwing it away and aside and burrying it in the ground, solely coz of the hideous act he committed, is in the same ignoring and pushing aside the pain and suffering from the victims, it comes down to saying ok it is terrible but just my understanding and my best wishes and then I am done with it.

      If we want to learn something on how this came to be and what we can do in the future to prevent of similar things happening in the future, then we need to read it, examine it, analyse it and try to understand this man’s thinking pattern. It is vital also for the parents of the victims and their other relatives, to offer some form of understanding for them. Losing a relative in a random act of violence is the worst process to go through, coz questions will allways be in their minds, what could we have done to prevent this.

      So basically stating that people who read this and spread this and try to have a debate about this, that they are just as bad as him, is really short-sighted from your part.

      • Ryan Lister

        I would not be surprised in the least if this 1500+-page manifesto is as incoherent as that of the Unabomber.

      • Ryan Lister

        I would not be surprised in the least if this 1500+-page manifesto is as incoherent as that of the Unabomber.

        • Alainke

          At the moment I am going through it, and I can comfirm one thing, that the first parts of the manifest aren’t really incoherent at all, they guy really shows some IQ and has done some good research, his only problem is that he sees the world very black/white and refuses all scales of grey or nuances. And just that point defines him as an extremist and in a sense that is what makes him dangerous but not unpredictable.

          Also the fact that he didn’t post this right untill just moments before he went on his killing spree, proves his intelligence, if he had made this public some time before, he knew he would be on the radar and he would have never been able to conclude his mission.

          But for all this manifest offers a view inside his mind and his state, and I fear he is not alone in his convictions, allthought many people will not admit to this, but I fear more then we can imagine will share his views on the political climate that is ruling in Western Countries nowadays.

          • Ferder

            I think it’s weird to praise the intelligence of a madman. I don’t even
            estimate Hitler’s or Stalin’s intelligence. I appreciate the  emotional intelligence
            of the people by the way. It is a shame that this nonsense is still
            available on the internet and there are people who think it is worth reading
            it. His act was probably aiming to get into the news and to draw attention to
            his hellish writing. My condolences for the families of the victims and for all
            Europeans. 

          • Gerber

            Dear Ferder,  if you have a problem with freedom of speech, then please shut up, because that is what you want other people to do ;-)  Your comments maybe are as inconvenient to other people as anything you might get disturbed about.  If you touch freedom of speech, you touch what the civilised world has struggled for, for hundreds of years.  Yes, even a madman has freedom of speech, no matter how bizarre that might seem to you.  It is, after all, the only way to know what people think, what their emotions are, and what we should consider before judging someone or forming a response.  If you touch that, you’re intellectually no better than a madman… mabe even far less, but that is just my opinion of course.  Don’t be too much offended, because it is after all just the opinion of one person to find your attitude lowly, so cheer up, chap ;-)  I’d rather read the writings of a madman, than having to read nonsensical censorship attitudes, but hey, I’m just a curious person.  Anyways, it’s good to know that there still are people like you.  It keeps us informed about the hate in your heart, about your so-called ‘political correctness’ camouflage to simply shut up other people as soon as they don’t agree with you.  The people that host this website are doing a good deed, even if they may get into trouble with people like you who don’t like subversive writings that much.  Always remember: there are words and opinions, not only yours.  Everyone has them, and should be entitled to vent them in a civil way.  You do that too, I agree, so please go ahead, because your opinion to want to suppress the written word is interesting by itself.  It says a lot about you, and it is good that you let us know that some people still think like that.  Thanks, and keep the flow going, Ferder, never stop!

          • Mohammed

            I bet you’ve never lifted a finger to fight for freedom of speech, except for when sitting behind your computer screen.

            A multitude of heroes have stood in front of and died, fighting for and protecting the current rights and privledges that we are blessed with. Cowards such as you sit comfortably hidden behind what great men and women have fought for.

            The fact that you do not even see the fallacy in your own writing for jumping this man/woman for their opinion is just as bad if not worse than his first commited “offence” against the freedom of speach, as you so… “eloquently” put it is ridiculous.

            To me this man is no better than Osama Bin Ladin. In fact, he is worse. In his attempt to become a hero this man has entered the ranks of every single religious and politically extremist nutcase low-life.

            This manifesto is written in parts with some of them directly being guides on how to acquire illegal materials meant for death and destruction. These are materials that pose a DIRECT threat to all of our security. Only a fool such as you would think along the lines; “This is a written a written word and therefore must be protected” before considering that you, or as in the very recent case of nearly 100 poor norwegian families, your loved ones were walking down the street and either blown up or shot down due to a right wing nut, sociopath or religious extremist got his hand on this manifesto(If you haven’t grasped it yet I do mean the weapons acquisition part, I’m putting this in here for your benefit since you probably need it) and the information within.

            Anders Breivik is a traitor to his country, make no mistakes and what this fool seems to have not considered is that he has put this information not only in the hands of his intended target group but he has put it into the hands of every single potential mass murderer with internet access. 

            Keep the manifesto online if you so wish. But PLEASE, I emplore the hosts of this site; Edit away the parts about weapons acquisition and bomb-building. Lest one of our loved ones meet the same tragic end of those in norway.

            I myself am from the Middle East, however Sweden is my home. I am a Swedish Patriot and also a Norwegian Patriot. I am also an atheist and have no belief in a higher power. But I feel that the churches and mosques in Sweden do good work for those less fortunate and thus serve a good humanitarian purpose. After my mother divorced my father ( a big no no in muslim culture) we received much help from both the christian church and the mosque until she got a job and was able to provide for myself and my three brothers.
            To this day my mother volenteers at both of these institutions as a sign of gratitude. And for helping her I will always be grateful to both.
            None of us are practicing muslims, nor do we have an agenda of usurping power. We fled to Sweden to make a better life for ourselves and my entire family is forever in debt to Sweden for its openess and kindness.

            To end this, to my Norwegian friends; Sweden is behind you, we feel your pain, we are enraged, we are saddened for your losses beyond what words can convey.

            We also know that you are strong, that you are resolute and that you will get through this tragedy and be stronger for it!

            Every single one of you are our brothers and sister at heart no matter what nation we originally came from.

          • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

            Mohammed,
               I understand your arguments, but the document is widely available now. Much, if not all of he information contained in it that detail illicit activities was widely available before he compiled them.
               So, there is little that is new or hard to find beyond the man’s own thoughts and motivations.
               It is not up to me to decide what people can and cannot read, but I have tried to present this information in as neutral a way as possible and allow the widest exchange of ideas on it.
               In America, you can drive to the local chain bookstore and pick up Mein Kampf, The Unabomber’s Manifesto, or The Turner Diaries. You can by a Bible or the Koran while you’re at it. 
               All of these books can be misunderstood or have direct calls to violence, but it should be the actions of the man that dictate if he is acting against society, and not the contents of his library.

          • Mohammed

            Thank you for your reasoned reply Kevin.

            And I completely understand and support free speech, I simply have a problem with individuals who hide behind what has been fought for so bravely by better people. And unfortunately often being abused by those same cowards.

            I also understand your view on that this material is widely available already. But know that it would take only ONE computer illiterate would-be mass murderer who only managed to find his way here and for some reason no where else to not find the information necessary for making a fertilizer bomb to spare innocent lives.

            Here’s the thing; if something happened back home and I found out that they learned how to make a device thanks to this very site. I would be sick to my stomach especially if I had just sat here defending free speech instead of following common sense.

            Other than that, thank you for providing us with a copy of this maniacs manifesto. It was an interesting read, although I found it grossly misguided. As stated, I only have problem with facilitating potentially dangerous individuals with the resources needed for them to commit a new Columbine.

            -Mohammed

          • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

            ” I simply have a problem with individuals who hide behind what has been fought for so bravely by better people.”

            I think we’re in agreement here, and if I may, it parallels a debate I had with a friend of mine, who was a Ranger and is a patriot. It is my position that a US citizen burning an American flag is doing the most symbolically patriotic act one can.
            He was not amused, and, frankly upset. “That is a smack int he face to all the men that fought and died for that scumbags freedom to do that.” was the general reply.
            And mine was this “If someone dies for the right to free expression, but nobody speaks, that death was for nothing at all.”

            —It’s a complex issue ethically, and again, I appreciate your concerns and contributions. I have now started receiving rather angry and a few threatening communications instructing me to take this down.

            ” I would be sick to my stomach especially if I had just sat here defending free speech instead of following common sense.”I would be sick to my stomach as well, if that were to happen, but freedom is not easy, and often not safe. That is no consolation, it is not optimal, it is not how I “want it to be”, but I will do what I feel is right.

          • Mohammed

            I understand your point and it has been raised many times. The most memorable spiel I recall was by Penn and Teller. I agree with both sides of the argument. 
            However I have little to no respect for one of the sides.Unfortunately we do live in a time and world where cowards and ingrates will abuse the privileges that came from the blood of others. However, when the individual decided to take up the fight for freedom and liberty, that individual must understand and I am guessing does understand that they are not only handing that freedom and liberty to those who deserve it and will not abuse it, but that they also will be handing those same liberties to the ingrates, and those who would abuse it for evil.Example; A friend of mine had given a bum 5 euro each time she had seen him sitting in his own filth on the street. One day she walks past him, slips and falls. And the very same bum that she had been helping stands up and proceeds to starts laughing and mocking her.Does this mean that she will not give a 5 bill note to any transient anymore? No.

          • easy

            “And I completely understand and support free speech, I simply have a
            problem with individuals who hide behind what has been fought for so
            bravely by better people.”

            is that not slightly contradictory? i assume you are american, so pls forgive me if you are not ;). but my reasoning remains the same.

            many people have fought for what they call justice for millennia. just because america and some european countries are fighting ‘evil’, doesn’t mean it is actually ‘evil’ they are fighting. semantics come into play, or don’t they?
            and i’ll bet that breivik’s convictions are no way dissimilar to that of a us soldier, or even that of an afghan mujahideen!
            so we have one man fighting for what he believes, but we call it terrorism, yet we have 10’s of thousands of troops killing many, many more ‘innocents’ in the name of democracy (or whatever label you want to give it).

            we desperately need to accept peoples differences and not fob it off as acts of lunacy. we are all different and hold different ideals… embrace that and you are half way to winning the war of differences.
            distance yourself from that, and you are only one step closer to breivik, coupled with resentment and anger.

            all complex situations have easy fixes. the will to do so just has to be there.

          • Mohammed

            Of course it is contradictory, contradictions are a common theme in this discussion as well as many other abstract topics.

            The point which is more relevant is how we, the ones given these rights decide to use them. The fight for freedom of speech as you say is to enlighten, spread a plethora of ideas and to grow as a society.

            Can we use them to spread knowledge, love, understanding and truth? Yes we can!
            – Should we? Hell yes!

            Can we use them to burn the American flag, spread nazi news-letters and put out guides on how to create makeshift weaponry? Yes we can!
            – Should we? Hell no!

            Forgive my linear and perhaps categorical thinking, perhaps I am not as intellectually enlightened. However I see it as a paradox that by gaining these rights we are giving more freedom to those who, if they gained power, would remove these very rights.

            For me, these rights were fought for, not to enable more ignorance and breed more hate by giving the fear and hate-mongers a comfortable blanket to hide under while spreading the bile. But to give way for progress. 

            There is a big difference for me if freedom of speech is used to to further science or biology and bring up new and radical ideas, it is also acceptable for me that politically radical views are brought into light(for me personally it’s a huge laugh to read someone thinking that one entire demographic of people is in on a big secret with the end-goal being world domination, just as ridiculous that all women are in on a big secret regarding male genital size). But do think twice before arbitrarily deciding that releasing and facilitating what is basically a “How to” manual for terrorists(of any faith, gender, race or age group) is what was originally intended.

            Kevin has already made his stand clear regarding this, and as the proprietor of this website what he decides goes. I only submit my disapproval, as is my… you guessed it; right.

            I am for now done with the discussion of free speech as I don’t think it will yield much of substance in this forum with this dark topic hanging over it. However if you ever see me hanging around a pub in Ireland or Sweden, feel free to bring up the discussion. These topics are always more fun over a couple of beers.

            Adios

            -Mohammed

          • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

            Again, thank you for the considered comment, and your reasons for ending your participation in the discussion are reasonable and agreeable, so I will not belabor things by providing too harsh a challenge. It’s my website, so leaving isn’t so much an option for me.. heh.

            “However I see it as a paradox that by gaining these rights we are giving more freedom to those who, if they gained power, would remove these very rights.”
            We agree here as well, and something I struggle with. On many issues I swerve conservative, on many issues quite liberal.   Finding a balance between individual freedom and a strong society is what most people want, and that’s the core of the Founding Fathers of America, and even at the heart of Breivik’s manifesto. What is disagreed upon is what the rot actually is, and how to go about excising it.I cant speak of international politics, but modern american liberal thought is that if you change the environment for the better, the people get better. Modern american conservative thought is that if you change the people for  the better, the environment will get better. (and the same is true for things getting worse).The argument that is persuasive to me is that a people tend make an environment, and not the other way around.

            So, where this intersects with free speech is, a liberal oriented mindset may believe that “bad” writing will cause “bad” people, and a conservative mindset says that “bad” people gravitate to “bad” writing. The reality is somewhere in-between, and too often a false dichotomy is presented, just like the above. I will say though, in agreement with your stated principal above, a socialized robust welfare state can only survive if the people in it have a strong bond with one another, and supporting and promoting and encouraging people who would take advantage of that welfare because they lack a strong bond (and thus have a “social contract” with them) will ruin the system for everyone. Like vaccination, it allows for a few freeloaders, but once that heard immunity threshold is crossed, everyone is in danger.You’ll have to excuse the simplistic terminology and phrasing. I find too many people who discuss politics are obscurantists, lacing their dialogue with jargon that creates a veil of intellectualism or as a way of giving social signals they are of one party or another (the Marxist inspired folks are the WORST!). So maybe writing in this way is reactionary, in a sense, but clarity is my goal.

          • easy

            i hope you didn’t take my reply as a way to antagonise you, i just find it curious that the vast majority of people are too fixated on their chosen set of perceived ‘rights’, while ignoring the fact that others are also entitled to theirs.

            i appreciate your comments and, for the most part, i agree whole-heartedly. i just feel there are two sides to this, which should to be explored to understand why.

            and yes, a pint or two would make this sort of topic more bearable.

          • Sonia

            I feel the same way you do when someone claims says that I am an idiot for wanting to read something that I cannot understand.  The very reason I want to read the manifesto is to try to get a grip on this event, to wrap my mind around it.  I disagree with Mohammed that a person has to have died for freedom of speech to have a right to defend it.  I become angry with people who try to stop free speech by shaming me or others.  My question to Ferder is this:  Why did you come here to read it yourself?  Why did you come to this thread?  Did you come here to tell everyone else that we are idiots for reading the manifesto?  I doubt that!  You came here for the same reason we did, I’m sure. 
            And Mohammed:
            I would say this same thing that Gerber said here in person to anyone who tries to shut me up.  I am not “hiding” behind a computer screen, it just happens to be the most reasonable and convenient way to express my thoughts to others outside of my hometown and circle of friends.

          • Hfghfgh

            Stalin was pretty dum, Hitler was smarter but not that smart. He was a great speaker though. I think Mussolini was the smartest person of that bunch, and he is the only one who I respect. 

            ‘It is a shame that this nonsense is still
            available on the internet”Freedom of speech???

          • Nakamomin

            As analysts in Norway have pointed out, there is a clear difference in wording and eloquence between the first part (ideological) and the second part (biographical). It has already been pointed out that he (delicately put) borrows extensively from other similar manifestos (Unabobmer being one) and writings. It is interesting that he does not identify himself as a devote Christian, but he (and the other “Templars”) choose Christian symbolism as they suspects a Christian platform would be more palatable to most people than a Nazi/nationalist. This seems like a very well thought out platform, which raises the question: Who are the other Templars?

            He is clearly not a rambling idiot, but at best he is a copy-and-paste wizard. His ideological foundation is a suitable re-write and/or cut n’ paste of known literature that fits the “Templars” goals.  

            How much help he’s had from the other “Templars” in the formation of the first part is also unknown.
            The second part is the most interesting IMO as it describes the method and particularity of his plan and the discipline behind its execution. From someone with limited education in the field of psychology, I’d say he checks a lot of the boxes for Anti-social disorder (psychopath/sociopath). Social isolation, calculating, lack of empathy, fixation on systems and regimes (workout, nutrition etc.), fascination for power (multiple gun owner although he doesn’t hunt and never completed mandatory military service), thoughts of supremacy. Even the neighbors mentioned that he was excessively polite (another trait).

            So what kind of picture does this paint?
            Well, to me he seems a textbook psychopath; relatively high IQ, poor social skills covered by shyness/politeness, disciplined, strong internal motivation, little to no empathy. He even concludes that his actions will be regarded as monstrous and despicable and if he were to survive he’d probably wake up to the worst day he can imagine. Yet he follows through and executes his plan.  

          • Nakamoomin

            Sorry, I meant sociopath, not psychopath…

          • Black Pig

            I would not consider him a sociopath. If you read his manifesto, he obviously cares deeply about not only his friends, but his fellow Europeans. In his mind, he had no choice. For sociopath, the choice is simple: kill and then justify for comedy’s sake. No. He’s the other way around. Keep in mind, he spent 8 years writing the manifesto before killing anyone. A sociopath would not have cared enough about the remains of his culture enough to put off demoralizing his kin. 

        • Brana85

          U can’t compare Unabomber with this massacre. Unabomber victims were targeted, this guy went random. What was incoherent with Unabombers manifesto? He is a neoludite anarho-primitivist he believes human race will eventually eradicate herself. Have u even red it?He is a murderer and a terrorist but the problem he presented is real and believe it or not he did make a difference, many anthropologist and sociologist started to reevaluate the relationship between human and machines and industry he choose a wrong way but his voice was heard. Or have u red who his victims were. I suggest u watch german documnetory

      • Black Pig

        The unfortunate side effect of what you are saying, based on what I’ve read of dissenting opinions of the current state of academia, is that anyone who dissents is a potential terrorist. This is a problem. Freedom of speech is an important thing. And if we willingly dig ourselves into the hole of labeling anything in disagreement with popular opinion as life-threatening, we run the risk of losing our most important liberty.
        As Benjamin Franklin wrote, “He who is willing to sacrifice essential liberty for a little temporary security deserves neither liberty nor security.” We absolutely cannot, CANNOT, forget this. I implore you: the last thing we need is to allow ourselves, out of fear, to be convinced that anyone who writes a dissenting manifesto deserves to be labeled a potential mass murderer. To do so would be the gravest mistake. 

      • coincidence

        Yesterday, the 24th, in the Houston Chronicle, an article about a science fiction writer caught my eye…
        “Andrea White visits 2083 in new science-fiction book”
        Is this just coincidence, or is the date 2083 of some significance?
        Her book isn’t titled 2083…that is the date she has set for some of her stories.

        I haven’t looked at the PDF yet, just glanced thru some of these posts.

      • coincidence

        Yesterday, the 24th, in the Houston Chronicle, an article about a science fiction writer caught my eye…
        “Andrea White visits 2083 in new science-fiction book”
        Is this just coincidence, or is the date 2083 of some significance?
        Her book isn’t titled 2083…that is the date she has set for some of her stories.

        I haven’t looked at the PDF yet, just glanced thru some of these posts.

    • Ryan Lister

      Or, one could say that eliminating this file would be akin to the Nazis’ destruction of literature in order to simplify or censor what people saw, read, or had access to.  George Orwell might have viewed this as a tactic similar to Newspeak.  I personally condemn the violence of yesterday, and I believe that Behring Breivik is mentally off-kilter; however, to start censoring what is available to the people is fascist, insulting, retarding, and wrong.

    • we’re all fucked

      “Yes, burn the heretical book!”

      That sounds vaguely familiar, but the book I read it in was burnt…. oh well…. libricide for all!

    • Fdg

      Really Captain Obvious? It took you long to get to the conclusion.  It doesn’t matter. I googled this work and I found about 5 top links all had this work. So if he takes it down, people will get it from a different web-site.

  • Pingback: 2083 – A European Declaration of Independence | Schizodoxe

  • Alin

    Fake 100%. Look at the document properties in adobe reader: Created 23.07.2011 2:31 pm

    • Anonymous

      ” It was a Docx file and I exported to PDF so it was more easily viewed by a larger number of people.”/facepalm

  • http://twitter.com/ABRaingutters Rain Water Systems

    He is correct in many of the fundamental points, sadly, to say less would be intellectually dishonest.

    That being said, why didn’t he kill Muslims then?
    Because that would not have gotten people to think, like this will?

    My condolences to the families. It is sad that a persons derangement can be triggered to such an awful end by the ineptness of an idiotic government (s).

    This reminds me of the McDonalds massacre twenty or so years ago in San Diego; the dude had just had enough of a government that allows the illegal aliens in, pretends to enforce laws, while extracting as much revenue as possible from the actual citizens, so he did the only thing he could think of, and that was to kill 30 or so people, mostly Hispanics.

    The government profits from horrors like this; they get new and harsher gun laws and more oppressive search rights.

    Before we rush to declare these people as victims sacrificed on the alter of gun rights, let us ponder not only the what and where, but the WHY. This murdered had a political agenda. There was a point he was trying to make and he felt it important enough to kill a whole bunch of people for it.

    • old

      “That being said, why didn’t he kill Muslims then?”

      – Because he wanted to kill the (future) political elite of Norway. He maybe also hoped for political officials present on the island. That is also the reason he did not plant his bomb next to a mosque but near the prime ministers office.

      • Aya

        No. He just wanted to gain some attention to spread the message (p. 822).

      • tam

        I think it may have to do with the Islamic intimidation of European leaders… where they are afraid of doing anything that might seem anti-muslim or politically incorrect.  That is why many media outlets refused to publish those cartoons.  But he is hoping that if the people teach the leaders an equal fear than they will be motivated to do something and  will actually be intimidated away from catering to Islamic demands.  He has spoken the language that some leaders bow to… fear. 

  • Карл Маркс

    Эти идиоты хотят развязать вой ну в европе ,в которой она и погибнет!

  • TheGermanVisitor

    I started yesterday to read his MANIFESTO.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/OneHuman-Right/100000981318260 OneHuman Right

    http://media.causes.com/1088834?s=cause
    http://www.causes.com/causes/589945-facebook-friends-coalition-shut-down-haarp-high-frequency-active-auroral-research-project

    “Friends do it this way – that is, whatever you do in life, do the very best you can with
    both your heart and mind. And if you do it that way, the Power Of The
    Universe will come to your assistance, if your heart and mind are in
    Unity. When one sits in the Hoop Of The People, one must be responsible
    because All of Creation is related.
    And the hurt of one is the hurt of all. And
    the honour of one is the honour of all. And whatever we do affects
    everything in the universe. If you do it that way – that is, if you
    truly join your heart and mind as One – whatever you ask for, that’s the
    Way
    It’s Going To Be.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/OneHuman-Right/100000981318260 OneHuman Right

    http://www.causes.com/causes/589945-facebook-friends-coalition-shut-down-haarp-high-frequency-active-auroral-research-project
    “Friends do it this way – that is, whatever you do in life, do the very best you can with
    both your heart and mind. And if you do it that way, the Power Of The
    Universe will come to your assistance, if your heart and mind are in
    Unity. When one sits in the Hoop Of The People, one must be responsible
    because  All of Creation is related.  And the hurt of one is the hurt of all.  And
    the honour of one is the honour of all. And whatever we do affects
    everything in the universe. If you do it that way – that is, if you
    truly join your heart and mind as One – whatever you ask for, that’s the
    Way  It’s Going To Be.”
    http://media.causes.com/1095211?s=c_feed

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ddsouth-Thailand/100002347068387 Ddsouth Thailand

    One question lingers in my mind again, and again. Why did he do this to his own people? what is in there for killing your loved one just to tell them that you care for them.

    In my country, we have problems with Muslims as well, but I do know that majority of them are just ordinary people like anybody else.
    There, they have only two choices: sided with insurgents, or die. Being a Muslim doesn’t help.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not Muslim sympathizer, I just see no point in killing innocents for your cause. The world has seen enough for the likes of Bin Laden.

    • Alainke

      He is not blaming the muslims in essence, he is blaming the political leaders for the weakening of the traditional cultural values of europeans. And if you read the manifesto it becomes clear that socialism is the root of all evil for him, and he attacked the head office of the social party in Norway (president is a socialist) and the camp was a socialist youth camp.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ddsouth-Thailand/100002347068387 Ddsouth Thailand

        Thank you for your additional insight. I missed parts of his so called “Manifesto” indeed. You can’t help it though, it’s a madman ‘s 1.5k pages document after all.

        Still, his “pre-emptive” strike – killing childrens – is WAY too much to be justify for any causes.

      • Someone

        Since when was Norway a republic? Since when was the norwegian governing party a socialist party? Since when was killing children as young as 14 a political act? Maybe you should get your facts straight before you share your wisdom with others. 

        • alainke007

          Oh I am sorry mister Someone, you are right, he is the prime minister fromt he AP (Arbeitsparty, red socialist still but outherwise named that is all) and yes the kids on the island were all members of the same party, and yes even as astrocious as it is, the killing and the bombing is a political act, no more no less. He isn’t some serial killer getting a kick out of it, but if you wanna be blind to the reasons behind, you are as stupid and ignorant as the mass that wanna censure his manifest and wanna be blind to the problems in the world today.

          • Nanne from Norway

            I struggle to understand how anyone can justify his actions?!!!!?!
            Maybe you should try to justify it in front of the victims on Utøya?!!
            The bomb was awful, but to be so cold and shoot and kill so many teenagers who have the guts to stand up and talk is not something YOU or anyone can justify!

            And the manifest should be destroyed! He does not deserve to get it out to the world, because that was what he wanted!

            Maybe you should come here, to Norway and see the evil man for your self??

          • Patrik

            “He isn’t some serial killer getting a kick out of it”
            Really? And how do you know this? I guess he did it despite terrible angst whenever he pulled the trigger? (As if..)

          • Sonia

            Well, how do you know that it was getting a kcik out of it?  Were you there?  Did you see his expressions?

    • Black Pig

      Insofar as my feeble mind can determine, his point was this:

      If a Muslim kills westerners (note the cultural difference; for Breivik, this is very important) in the name of Islam, that person is labeled a religious fanatic.

      If a western-European kills fellow westerner-Europeans (note the lack of
      cultural difference) in the name of protecting westerner-Europe, well…
      that gets your attention. What bigger WTF can you fathom? And I know
      you may find that hard to swallow, but consider if you can the fact he boldly
      refers to his killing spree as “a marketing operation” the sole purpose
      of which was to draw attention to a written attack on political
      correctness, and you begin to get the idea.

      The fact he chose to a) murder b) fellow Norwegians, many of whom were
      also c) children is an accent over the “i” of “Politically Incorrect.” In his mind, by committing the most politically incorrect act imaginable
      (murdering fellow Norwegian children), he has successfully drawn
      attention to the revelation that modern terrorism is quite possibly a byproduct of Marxist-inspired political
      correctness.

      And, yes, I do acknowledge the catch-22 inherent in his train of thought, but think of it this way: if it’s politically incorrect to joke about 9/11 on 9/12 if only for the sake of maintaining some semblance of sanity, then what better way to demoralize a people into adopting a fear-laden, politically correct, police-state (TSA, anyone?) mentality than to lure them into a situation where joking about getting laid off due to a war-incurred economic debt is utterly unthinkable. (Can anyone else recall the Rolling Stone interview with Omar bin Laden in which he details Osama’s claim that he already won the war because all he wanted was to lure the US into Afghanistan for the purpose of crippling its economy? Osama died convinced he had already won. But, that’s beside the point.)

      For Breivik, political correctness = vulnerability = invitation to terrorism.

      Anyway, that’s what I make of it. I’m not saying I agree. I’m simply an historian and, now that’s it’s officially the past, I think it’s worth talking about, worth considering.

    • Black Pig

      Insofar as my feeble mind can determine, his point was this:

      If a Muslim kills westerners (note the cultural difference; for Breivik, this is very important) in the name of Islam, that person is labeled a religious fanatic.

      If a western-European kills fellow westerner-Europeans (note the lack of
      cultural difference) in the name of protecting westerner-Europe, well…
      that gets your attention. What bigger WTF can you fathom? And I know
      you may find that hard to swallow, but consider if you can the fact he boldly
      refers to his killing spree as “a marketing operation” the sole purpose
      of which was to draw attention to a written attack on political
      correctness, and you begin to get the idea.

      The fact he chose to a) murder b) fellow Norwegians, many of whom were
      also c) children is an accent over the “i” of “Politically Incorrect.” In his mind, by committing the most politically incorrect act imaginable
      (murdering fellow Norwegian children), he has successfully drawn
      attention to the revelation that modern terrorism is quite possibly a byproduct of Marxist-inspired political
      correctness.

      And, yes, I do acknowledge the catch-22 inherent in his train of thought, but think of it this way: if it’s politically incorrect to joke about 9/11 on 9/12 if only for the sake of maintaining some semblance of sanity, then what better way to demoralize a people into adopting a fear-laden, politically correct, police-state (TSA, anyone?) mentality than to lure them into a situation where joking about getting laid off due to a war-incurred economic debt is utterly unthinkable. (Can anyone else recall the Rolling Stone interview with Omar bin Laden in which he details Osama’s claim that he already won the war because all he wanted was to lure the US into Afghanistan for the purpose of crippling its economy? Osama died convinced he had already won. But, that’s beside the point.)

      For Breivik, political correctness = vulnerability = invitation to terrorism.

      Anyway, that’s what I make of it. I’m not saying I agree. I’m simply an historian and, now that’s it’s officially the past, I think it’s worth talking about, worth considering.

    • Black Pig

      Insofar as my feeble mind can determine, his point was this:

      If a Muslim kills westerners (note the cultural difference; for Breivik, this is very important) in the name of Islam, that person is labeled a religious fanatic.

      If a western-European kills fellow westerner-Europeans (note the lack of
      cultural difference) in the name of protecting westerner-Europe, well…
      that gets your attention. What bigger WTF can you fathom? And I know
      you may find that hard to swallow, but consider if you can the fact he boldly
      refers to his killing spree as “a marketing operation” the sole purpose
      of which was to draw attention to a written attack on political
      correctness, and you begin to get the idea.

      The fact he chose to a) murder b) fellow Norwegians, many of whom were
      also c) children is an accent over the “i” of “Politically Incorrect.” In his mind, by committing the most politically incorrect act imaginable
      (murdering fellow Norwegian children), he has successfully drawn
      attention to the revelation that modern terrorism is quite possibly a byproduct of Marxist-inspired political
      correctness.

      And, yes, I do acknowledge the catch-22 inherent in his train of thought, but think of it this way: if it’s politically incorrect to joke about 9/11 on 9/12 if only for the sake of maintaining some semblance of sanity, then what better way to demoralize a people into adopting a fear-laden, politically correct, police-state (TSA, anyone?) mentality than to lure them into a situation where joking about getting laid off due to a war-incurred economic debt is utterly unthinkable. (Can anyone else recall the Rolling Stone interview with Omar bin Laden in which he details Osama’s claim that he already won the war because all he wanted was to lure the US into Afghanistan for the purpose of crippling its economy? Osama died convinced he had already won. But, that’s beside the point.)

      For Breivik, political correctness = vulnerability = invitation to terrorism.

      Anyway, that’s what I make of it. I’m not saying I agree. I’m simply an historian and, now that’s it’s officially the past, I think it’s worth talking about, worth considering.

  • Anonymous

    I just spent about five hours reading through this murdering scum’s manifesto. 

    Haunting. Freaky. Suspenseful (towards the end). Ghoulish. Unbelievable. As others have pointed out, his alleged killing aside, a lot of the points he makes in this document will resonate as true with scores of millions of people throughout Europe. The rise of the new nationalist right in Europe is not without cause; this seems to be a tragic, sickening result. This could all well be too weird to be true. Sincerely, – crimesofthetimes.com* *Go there or go nowhere

  • Anonymous

    This is some of the weirdest shit I have ever come across in my years of following world events via the web. 

    Weird weird weird. 

    The Norway shooter’s manifesto is hardly “rambling,” as the MSM states over and over. Unless you consider a paragraph such as this : 

    p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 20.0px Helvetica}

    “Western state sanctioned negationism or “politically motivated historical revisionism” on the subject of Islam started for the first time in Great Britain in the late 19th century. The process was politically motivated with the goal of creating a good foundation for BritishMuslim cooperation and trade.” … to be ramblings. This is all highly weird and highly depressing. For such an obviously articulate and intelligent Westerner to descend to such hellish acts of hate and violence – against his own kind – I just don’t know what to think. False flag? Monarch programming? It’s all so heartbreakingly wrenching and, especially, weird. The West is clearly in decline, noone disputes this. The things this monster rails against are partly to blame, noone disputes this. But to see something like THIS happen, is going to create a lot – and I mean A LOT – of really confused people all over the world, both in the West and in the Islamic world. Sincerely, – crimesofthetimes.com ps: check out the manifesto. Do a simple “control-F” search to see which words are used the most. Search for the word “nigger.” It’s used twice. (“Africa” is used 350 times; “Hitler’ is used about as much).  You’ll be surprised to see in what context. 

  • Harry Hewitt

    There is a theory that Hitler had method in his madness……….

    • fucker@gmail.com

      He had one, and it is not a theory, read more books retard! National Socialism (Nazis) that he (Hitler) copied from Mussolini. And in 1920’s a lot of people supported Mussolini and said it was awesome and could work in America too! The funny thing is that Anders Behring Breivik calls himself anti-Marxist. Socialism IS Marxism. National Socialism is different from “worker’s” Socialism because it calls for being Patriotic to your country. Normal Socialism calls for workers of all countries to unite. So Marxism is really bendable, and Mussolini and Hitler had the same idea as Marx. It is hard to define what is what, what is left and what is right. So maybe Andres actually supports Marx :)

  • Mikepaul

    I always knew something was going wrong in Europe. United States of Europe was not good idea for this part of the World.  Especially  with european  green card for Africa and Asia. But we were too uncivilized to give you advices. Unfortunately we are not astonished. Who would tell us now  in Eastern Europe where we should go to?    

  • Harry Hewitt

    Norways Special forces are now on continuous high alert…………In charge is Hagar the Horrible

  • Fromtheotherside

    I’m so sorry for the deaths. But i think this is a good opprtunity for western world..
    Let’s call Breivik as “christian terrorrist”.
    Till now, the christian world see whole the islamic world as “extremist” or “terrorist” becouse of a few mad and west driven people.
    If bad samples can enough to name others as devil; Brevik is a good sample for christian world.
    If you are using a title as “Islamic terror”, from now on please call all the extremists in Christianic world as “terrorists” also.
    For example, what were the IRA’s “operations”? Why don’t we call them as “catholic terrorists”?

    • Gabe Andersson

      I truly agree with you. Christianity “need” some notorious terrorists to show people that Islam is not the only bad thing. Christians can perhaps no longer say, “Well at least we don’t fly into buildings, killing thousands”. While it’s terrible that such things happen I think it’s only fair that Christianity shares a piece of the disrespect-cake. Forgive my crude thoughts, but I thought it was slightly refreshing to see that it’s not just Muslims that kill and terrorize.
      I find this mass murderer hypocritical in that he sees himself as a force against evil. Doesn’t he understand that Christians and Muslims are equally deluded? This man is not only a psychopath, he is as deluded as the people he hates, and he is far from intelligent, for he has forsaken reason. Really, he’s going to die a martyr’s death and come to heaven as a true knight? Please… he sounds equally mad as the people that shout “Allah akbar!” and then blows themselves up believing they will get 72 virgins and a special place in heaven.
      Religious people — hilariously ignorant, and at the same time frightening.

      Although, as above posters have stated, I have to agree with a lot of what he is saying. I, for one, don’t adhere to political correctness. I found it repulsive even before seeing what he has written. It impedes debates and discussions all the time, because there are some “rules” that say that there are some things that can not be discussed. It also destroys our language, trying to narrow it down, you might recognize this as a parallel to the language “Newspeak” in George Orwell’s novel “Nineteen Eighty-Four”.
      And Islam is Not the religion of peace. I don’t know what crackpot Muslim said it but it’s definitely not true. The scripture of Islam is overwhelmingly based on the negative treatment of non-believers.
      However, I don’t know if they are trying to take over the world. But there is still truth in there, because it may seem like they are trying to take over the world.
      And nationalism… well, that’s just an illusion. We are all humans. Countries and borders aren’t intrinsic to our nature, but we delude ourselves to think that they matter.

      I haven’t read that much of his manifesto, but I think I have understood the basics. It’s not like I’m going to plough through over 1500 pages that a deluded mind composed.
      Just some thoughts…

      • Cemartinez

        It’s really ridiculous to label this person is a “Christian” terrorist. He is labeled “Christian” in the sense he was differentiating himself form the Muslim non-Norwegian ethnics in Norway. Did he attend church regularly? Did he yell out “God bless you” or “Jesus lives” while he was shooting those youngsters? Why is he labeled “Christian”, because he said so when asked for religion whilst creating his Facebook profile? Was he involved in church outings and ministering to people? You are not born into a religion nor are you made a member of any religion just by labeling yourself such. Muslim terrorists on the other hand practice Islamic faith and do their deeds based out of a sick perverse view of their religion…no I’m not saying all Muslims are terrorists though most terrorists are Muslims, practice the religion, and do their terrorist murders in the name of Islam/Jihad. This mentally f’ed up SOB Breivik was about as much a Christian as nazi/pot smoker Tim McVeigh.

        • Standbybet

          were u there when he killed them? so u did heard that he didnt killed in name of jesus?!! are u there when a muslim kill himself?? or u just see tv? he his a crazy fuckin asshole that just killed becouse his religious LSD DREAM. and cemartinez one last thing..
          YES he didnt scream the name of jesus
          YES he didnt went to church
          BUT he fuckin let behind him a 1500 pages of screamings and hate against muslims, and 1500 pages of crusade against muslims. for my opinion yes he is a CHRISTIAN TERRORIS.
          but first of all he is an asshole

        • Fromtheotherside

          So, where you can understand the labeled “muslim terrorists” are perfect muslims actually?
          Were they attended the mosques regularly? How do you know their faith reflecting real Islam?
          But we all know, the suspects of 9/11 were alcholic drinkers for example, against the Islamic belief and practice.

          In your style, may i ask you: Were the 911 bombers called people to mosque while killing them?
          Or, how do you know that they were muslims? Which muslim country has a profit from “terrorism”?
          The only winner of  9/11 is western world, not the muslims.
          None of my family or my country accepts this kind of behaviour, but my people are deemed as “potential terrorists”.

          Where do you learn about Islam’s theory? Or, does all your knowledge in Islam, depend on your own belief?

          Before accusing Islam, look the orders of “old testament” first.
          Antisemitism, fascism, national socialism are not Islamic or Esatern practices.

          Multiculturalism is a western ideal, but it is an eastern truth.
          The ideal of Multiculturalism was a good try but doesn’t worked for European countries, while eastern world was living in an (unnamed) multinational/ multicultural societies for several centuries
          East has many multi-nationalism or multi-religious experiences while Europeans were living in a mediveal darkness.
          Remember the inquisition kills of millions of “others” in the name of “christianity” while Ottoman Empire saving the Jew people from Spain.

          So if you call a group as “muslim terrorists”,  Breivik deserved to naming as “christian terrorist”.
          Source of his belief strictly depends on an “antimuslim” ideology and he thinks he is a “crusader” against the other cultures then christianity in Europe.
          This is not racism but pure “christian terror”.
          Poor idiot…

          Western world needs it enemies. If there is no, it should be created.
          All the comfort and richness behind the western world, need conflicts.

          While high tech soldiers killing friends, raping sisters, bombing homes, destroying economies and hopes, young people’s reactions as throwing a stone is named as “terrorism”.
          Any objection or reaction to western profit, named as “terrorism” and caused unfair “punishment”s, new killings, new profits and bigger thefts.

          Islam was not destroyed cultures but the christianity.
          Remember all the century wide wars among the christian doctrines.
          Remember the murders or slavery in the name of christianity and modernity as a tool of colonialism.
          Remember the modern western darwinian ethic against the poor or black.
          For example, please think what was the meaning and reasons of “Opium wars” in 19th century. Or many massacres in India or in Africa.

          All the others to christianity were “infidels” weren’t they?
          Look all the bloody sources of western modernity.

          We all blaming Breivik because the victims were not muslim.
          How much did you think about bombing to millions living in Baghdad? Or civilian lifes in Libia nowadays?
          You probably did not, because they were all terrorists, weren’t they?

          Most of western people thinks muslims were not deserving to live; it is easy to believe the lies of their leaders.
          It is easy to accept whole muslim/ eastern world as “terrorist” for feeling “clean”.

          Western world creates enemies for its own good, but doesn’t look at its bloody hands.
          Moreover, blames the “others” and call them all as “terrorist”.

          I’m sorry for all the victims of that “believed terrorist of Norway”.
          But i am also sorry for the mentality of him so wide in the west.

          Breivik is a real “religious terrorist” of christianity and terrorised minds of west can not easily understand this.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FNWK5IQUFNOTBHBJW2XEJOESME John Lee

        This action has more to do with immigration than it does Religion…You cant compare his actions to those of Osama bin Laden for example. Muslim terrorists for the most part kill to further Islam and to take control of Government to enforce Islamic Law. That is their goal, and they dont have many goals besides that. Afterall there are not hordes of immigrants threatening to over run and replace the people of Iraq with Italians…Native Iraqis will still be the de facto majority in Iraq a hundred years from now, they have no threat to losing their majority in their own country.

        This Norwegian man on the other hand, “lost it”, not because of religion but because he believes that immigration is treasonous to his people and to his culture. And in truth he is correct, immigration is going to lead to Norway [and all of Europe] becoming majority Muslim within a century. The native “white” Europeans are going to become minorities in their own homelands…His view, was that the only hope of changing official government policy [which is leading to Native Norwegians being displaced] was to resort to violence.

        Do I agree with murder ? No. His act was sickening, but I do agree with his belief that Liberals are killing Native European culture and society by importing Muslims from Africa and the Middle East to replace Norwegians.

      • Juggle38

        It’s completely ridiculous to title him as a “Christian” terrorist just like it’s ridiculous to call al-Qaeda “Muslim” terrorists. Neither of them are Christians or Muslims. The real Christians and the real Muslims are the ones who travel abroad to help the hungry and impoverished, volunteer to help build their communities, or something even as simple as living a lifestyle that promotes peace and respect, but they certainly do NOT engage in terrorist attacks.

        Let’s get to what these titles are really about. They’re about pushing blame and animosity onto one group so that another group can feel more justified in its own stance. It’s a social tool that exploits the suffering of others, which is completely disgusting and insulting to the victims of these tragedies. They deserve better than your ignorant rhetoric. I will remember to keep you and all people like you in my prayers in hopes that you’ll realize what you say is not helping others and it certainly is not helping yourself.

  • S_black91

     
    This reminds me of the manifesto of the Twitter Terrorist Daniel Hayden Knight (American).  He wrote a manifesto, tweeted about his intentions, but was arrested by the FBI before the crime.  Knight got off very light.  He said he was just drunk.  Could that have happened to Breivik if he was arrested before the crime?
     
    Knight called his manifesto ” A New Declaration of Indepence including a bill of particulars”  I found it on the Infowars.com website.  That is very similar to the tiltle of Breivik’s manifesto.  What is it about these lone wolves?
    Twitter Terrorist Manifesto
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/17447165/Manifesto-of-Twitter-Terrorist
     

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_A2LTZ232XH54RPNMHP34S53DPI S.

    Congrats on finding the manifesto.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_A2LTZ232XH54RPNMHP34S53DPI S.

    This reminds me of the manifesto of the Twitter Terrorist Daniel Hayden Knight (American).  He wrote a manifesto, tweeted about his intentions, but was arrested by the FBI before the crime.  Knight got off very light.  He said he was just drunk.  Could that have happened to Breivik if he was arrested before the crime?
     
    Knight called his manifesto ” A New Declaration of Independence including a bill of particulars”  I found it on the Infowars.com website.  That is very similar to the tiltle of Breivik’s manifesto.  What is it about these lone wolves?
    Twitter Terrorist Manifesto
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/17447165/Manifesto-of-Twitter-Terrorist

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_A2LTZ232XH54RPNMHP34S53DPI S.

    This reminds me of the manifesto of the Twitter Terrorist Daniel Hayden Knight (American).  He wrote a manifesto, tweeted about his intentions, but was arrested by the FBI before the crime.  Knight got off very light.  He said he was just drunk.  Could that have happened to Breivik if he was arrested before the crime?
     
    Knight called his manifesto ” A New Declaration of Independence including a bill of particulars”  I found it on the Infowars.com website.  That is very similar to the tiltle of Breivik’s manifesto.  What is it about these lone wolves?
    Twitter Terrorist Manifesto
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/17447165/Manifesto-of-Twitter-Terrorist

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  • Friends45

    embeeded the PDF and sharing to the world too – you can see here:
    http://mysharepointguru.com/news-tips-a-tricks/2083-manifesto-anders-breivik.html

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Thomas-Cook-Cook/100001787351916 Thomas Cook Cook

    Stupid Muslims stop spewing your hate!
    Since when do Nordics in general count as fully Christians? Anyone who knows
    history is aware that Nordics have been christened rather late, this is also valid
    for Germans, remember that during the time of Charlemagne there were still large
    populations worshipping their primitive Nordic gods.

    Their late Christianization has had
    terrible consequences.

  • http://cureobamaphobia.com Mark Hallenberg

    MSM, al-Awlaki, and Obama have all verified ‘The Manifesto’
    is the real deal.

  • TJR Australia

    I can see the reason for his actions very clearly. Horrific, but awakening. An awakening that the average white person needs. The cultures of white people all over the world are being eaten away by governments that have an insidious hidden agenda. One of subjugating all white people into a state of total submission in preparation of a genocide by islamics and blacks. This man is the fore runner of many who will try to save the culture of western whites. Such a shame we are being betrayed by our own democratic governments and peoples leading to these actions by peoples who would never traverse such paths if they were allowed to live in the culture so deeply rooted in their genes. A sign of the times

  • TJR Australia

    I can see the reason for his actions very clearly. Horrific, but awakening. An awakening that the average white person needs. The cultures of white people all over the world are being eaten away by governments that have an insidious hidden agenda. One of subjugating all white people into a state of total submission in preparation of a genocide by islamics and blacks. This man is the fore runner of many who will try to save the culture of western whites. Such a shame we are being betrayed by our own democratic governments and peoples leading to these actions by peoples who would never traverse such paths if they were allowed to live in the culture so deeply rooted in their genes. A sign of the times

    • Harry Noteboom

      Is it like that in Australia?  agree… here in Western Europe it’s exactly the same.  The indigenous people of Europe have lost their will to defend their culture, country and values.  Enslaved by convenient luxury, we have become weak and frightened like lambs.  What Brevik did might be seen by many as horrible (it essence it certainly is, considering the blood, the victims, the panic and the trauma to many individuals), but if this is a wake-up call worthy of remembering for the next few decennia, then pay your respects to his message.  No matter how ‘politically incorrect’ it may seem to some.. in essence his message is sharp, precise and correct.  It is now very easy for the media and the politicians to ‘paint him black’.  Nothing is easier than that, because he is in their power now, and will receive severe punishment.  But also consider (if your mind is wide enough for that) what he knew to be throwing away: the rest of his life.  He will probably spend it in jail, which will of course not be easy.  He must have realised that, since he was not planning on suicide and delivered himself to the authorities.  This makes you think, at least it does make me think: either he’s completely nutters (which I doubt severely), or he’s a very motivated, convinced person, to say the least.  I do see the logic in his actions, no matter how awful they might be.  Do you see it too?  I wonder if his prophecy will become truth.  It might just be: with a birth rate of +/- 5 for Islamic people ‘infiltrated’ in western countries, versus a rather low 1.5 for indigenous people, his calculation is actually not far off for most countries.  While we are striving for the stars, developing more humane animal rights, finally getting the hang of ecological thinking etc, will we allow the world to be thrown back several hunderds of years by a backward faith that wants to enslave us, take our and freedom of speech and many other good things we struggled for?  No matter what you think about Anders Brevik’s deeds, the facts remain: the man might actually have a point.  A sign of the times indeed.

    • Gosim

      Awakening? The Europeans should be on their feet and come to Balkans and see their last border post loosing the battle big time. And not only we have no help from west Europe but they are helping the other side. Whenever we are saying enough to Islam subjectivity, there is some west European expedition telling us that we are the ones that must step back.

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  • FucktheMuslims

    First of all, the attacker was a Mason as the Masonic Hall of his area of residence has admitted. No true Cristian can be a mason.
    Secondly, Cristianity has many different dogmas as has many different branches. Most of them have been created for selfish motives or control. In real authentic Cristianity no terrorist exist, neither any opression throughout history (meaning Orthodox Christianity).
    Thirdly, in his mnifesto he is right about almost everything he writes, and I say almost cause I haven’t read all of it. Do you think that if u go to Asian muslim countries you enjoy the freedom they enjoy here? Is it not true that all left wing idiots call right wings fascists and terrorists because they have no strong argumens to support their treasonus hatred over their own countries? I am an x-left wing and I know. I was later become patriotic and right wing. Society made me recently a racist (as I live in a peaceful country that over the past 2 years has been overrun by mouslims who have raised criminality over 82% and rape women all the time).

    Fuck friendship. I have no problem with the fucking muslims, but they should stay out of Europe. If they come here and breed like rabbits as they do, then I have a serious problem. I love history, unlike most, I have no short memory – only. I can not forget 1943, the year the world was sunk into darkness as I can not forget 1204, so Muslims are not the only bad ones.

    Countries like Germany and Britain deserve whatever they get, so I don’t give a fuck about them. The rest should be left alone to carve their path as they please without the muslim infestation that is going on lately.

    ps. One thing I didn’t understand about the attacks: Why did he not target muslims? does anybody know? and don’t tell me because he was stupid, I am looking for an actual answer. Cause if he had, I’d admire him, now I just think he is pshyco. I want to know his reason.

    • Black Pig

      I offer an explanation in response to Ddsouth Thailand above. 

  • ftocharlie

    I have read most of 2083. It is written in a second language but does not appear the rantings of a madman. It is not smplistic rhetoric and contains much illuminating material from many scholastic sources.

    • Son of Anders

      Spent the whole day skimming throught 2083.  It is very well written, extremely thorough, and reads like some sort of creepy reality suspense novel.  Breivik definitely knew his stuff.  Much of what he writes is hard to argue with and I’m sure many in western-europe will be giving new thought to some of Breiviks broader themes regarding the failure of multi-culturalism.

      • Black Pig

        I went to graduate school for history of science and technology. I read firsthand and thoroughly analyzed and discussed a significant portion of the works cited in Breivik’s manifesto. That said, I too find myself standing up against political correctness in this instance: Breivik is exceedingly intelligent and very knowledgeable with respect to post-structural interpretations of Marxism. I largely agree with his assessment of Derridan deconstructionism and its tendency to fill with smoke what breathing room for constructive, critical thinking texts worth reading often offer. Indeed, what purpose does degrading a text from the level of inspired music to that of insipid monotone serve? As one of those rare historians who considers every person, place, invention, and event worth talking about, I am not embarrassed to admit it has been a pleasure reading Breivik’s anti-PC manifesto–a breath of fresh air for the field of history, if you will.

    • Standbybet

      he just reached the point of his action. people like you/and reactions like yours, were his dreams and expectations.you are just a fish after his bait.

  • PRC

    Cultural and Religious conflicts and hostility against each other will finally lead to disaster to all human beings. 
    Maybe that is what the “Tower of Bable” really means.
    Any ideas about Extreme, Perfection, Purification…., are not good at all. 
    No matter Christians, Muslims, or Buddhists, should be adapted, or compromised to the modern society “to some extent”. Secularization is unavoidable.
    Diversifaction may not be that good, but at least, not that bad.

    • Blice One

      I have to agree with PRC here. The cultural diversification is done whether you like or not and Europe as been declining and will continue so. It is in the essence of change, that empires or nations rise to power then fade to the profit of another. This is just the desperate act of a man clinging to the past. His “manifesto” might be cleverly written but who knows who is behind this? All i see is a selfish act of a nobody trying to steal his moment of celebrity or whatever he is after. If he was indeed dedicated to the “independance of Europe” (that sounds completely stupid), why didn’t he jump off a building or find a peaceful way to make his point. ‘And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul?’ (Matthew 16:26)

      There is too many challenges humankind is facing as a whole to continue the nonsense of nationalism and patriotism. Yes some arabs come to Europe and steal and destroy out of anger. But first that doesn’t make them muslims and second, can’t we find positive exemples of arabic integration into society? Can’t humankind rise to its potential and tackle the problems at their roots instead of ranting on what belongs to who and such nonsense?; If not i’m afraid we are doomed to die in agony, while you still debate over the relevance of cultural diversity.

      • Johnny Redd

        I think that what you’ve said is mostly good so this is not a refutation — but I challenge your fatalism. It’s important to note that Breivik identifies with the Crusades which initially were a defense campaign to halt Muslim aggression. Were the Crusaders wrong in doing that? No-one criticizes the initial motivation for the Crusades. Unless you think that the Allies should not have gone to war against Germany when they thought it was necessary?

        Are you suggesting that Europeans at that time should have responded to the Muslim aggression and occupation with: “Europe has been declining and will continue so” so let’s not “continue the nonsense of nationalism and patriotism” — let’s just accept the status quo?

        They didn’t then, and we’re grateful. And now?

        • Blice One

          First of all, i think that the crusade were much more than merely a response to an act of aggression: it was a war for the holy land and the evangelism of the “barbarians”. Are you implying that all the muslims have a secret agenda to “conquer” Europe or the world? I think at the beginning, the presence of arabic people on european soil was just the result of the colonisation of muslim countries by the old european empires. Nowadays, it is probably more and more people like you and me trying to find a better life somewhere else.

          Secondly, i think it is not only wrong but dangerous to mix religion and politics. Religion is a spiritual thing part of the private sphere. Politics is a mean to rule men (and women).

          What exactly is your plan or Breivik’s plan (haven’t read his manifesto)? Get rid of all those evil muslims? How about chinese? Are they evil too? Whatever Breivik’s arguments (and the so-called Templars), it was forfeited, in my opinion, the second he chose to murder innocent people, cause there is no justification for his actions (least of all, a marketing ‘coup’). He is using terror and fear to spread his propaganda of hate like the disturbing echo of Joseph Goebbels. Do you think that it is by using terror that you spread your opinion? If i think that the neighbors are playing their music too loud, should i stick a knife in them? Surely there must be some civilized way to make a point without resorting to violence. In that way, Breivik failed as a norwegian, as a european and as a man.

          • Johnny Redd

            I don’t dispute that the motivation for the Crusades may have taken a nasty turn. However, I don’t even know enough about it to condemn them, and I got that information from a site that is highly critical of the Crusades. That’s why I said “initially”.

            Your statement that Muslims were in Europe because of European Colonisation is completely new to me — I have never heard that and my guess is that you’re wrong.

            I also haven’t heard anyone making a suggestion to get rid of Muslims, except in the sense of preventing them from taking over Europe. A few months ago during a march in London by Muslims demanding the introduction of Sharia Law in that country, a reporter asked the leader what would happen if the Queen refused to become Muslim. He replied: “Then she must leave England”.

            If Muslims do that when they’re a minority, what would they do if they were a majority? You’re getting emotional and defensive about an issue that has sufficient evidence to create alarm.

            I had a friend who was born in Dubai – and his father had worked there for 40 years. He left in his 30’s because there was no way he would ever get Residence, let alone citizenship.

            People in Europe have enough reason to be concerned — right now they choose to ignore it and hope for the best.

            But no-one is suggesting that anyone invades a Muslim country or kills Muslims, but you hear of Muslims (including religious leaders and governments) calling for the death of the “infidel West”.

            Who is threatening who? You are not being objective.

          • Loqman

            Dear Johnny Redd, as a Muslim I agree totally to your argument. Qur’an itself protects us from them: “There is no force in civilization/religion, because truth is obvious now”. I am at your side to fight against any ignorance of truth, and if it is done by people who call themselves Muslims. If the Queen refuses to become Muslima then she remains what she is. But if Islamic law should be introduced I may ask only one question: which one? Never never never I will accept the Saudi or Afghan way of destroying Islam. And I believe that everything but truth has a chance to be followed should even truth be pressed upon someone. THAT is because God has created us with a vast potential.

            What stupids do in minority will be even much worse when becoming the majority.
            “Islam came as a stranger and it will go as a stranger” is the sadden uttering of the holy Prophet of Islam. Einstein has given a hint why it may be so, and the holy Prophet said: “The stupid ones have broken my back”.

            But who wants truth will get it. This assurance of Jesus is true and valid. Because even if all deny truth truth will never be destroyed. We and what we do will disappear, but not truth. I understand Islam as the party of truth. And the most people may not love truth because it is independant from their ego.

            Anders Breivik is a murder and he has chosen the worst way. Did nobody listen to him? Did he listen to his victims when he killed them?

            Dialogue needs language and knowledge. The process in acquiring this assets is called jihad in Arabic. It is a striving process for the betterment. Never it will end.

          • Johnny Redd

            Nice post. I think that agreeing on what is truth is at the heart of religious conflict. “What is truth?”. That was a question the Roman governor Pilate asked Jesus at the trial. Jesus kept quiet, because Pilate was looking at it. Our problem will be that we end up philosophizing about thousands of things. Jesus Christ is the stumbling block, and any discussions about truth (at least for me) will begin and end with him. How on Earth could we ever hope for agreement? All we can hope for is to agree on protocol, mutual respect for each others freedoms etc. Liberals try to resolve the conflict by saying that everyone is right — which of course means that everyone is wrong :-).

          • Loqman

            Dear Johnny Redd, again I have to admit, and the protocol is very important: does not make the sound the music? And even for an agreement on truth chances are not bad. In short, he himself, Jesus Christ, once told to all of us: “there will be one after me”. My advice, look at Muhammad and Ali, compare from different directions, and truth will be obviously clear. Be not like Pilate. And for you it will be more easy as if you were an Arab. Because you will use your brain, not your ancestors stories. You know the value of truth, they only know the value of rassism, money and power.

          • Johnny Redd

            Hi Loqman, Jesus never said there would be one after him. Rather, he warned us that many would come in his name and deceive many. Muhammad was born, drew men after him, and died — and those he drew after him continue his legacy. Jesus existed with God in the beginning, was born to deliver mankind, died only to conquer death itself, then was raised to life. He is not dead, he is seated at the right hand of God. There is no reason for anyone to come after him.

          • Loqman

            The mercy of God will never end. His will prevails. Without His guidance we would act as Anders Breivik and wouldn’t have the slightest doubt of being on the wrong way. Who accepts truth will become happy.

          • Johnny Redd

            Thanks for that…I largely agree. However, I believe that God’s ways, and his will, are more than we can fathom. So I can really just quote Scripture to you if I want to be sure that I am right.

            Incidentally, just a correction to my last reply to you: Jesus did say that he would send someone after he had left — but he was referring to the Holy Spirit who would lead us from within :-).

  • Johnny Redd

    Norway are about to open a can of worms, but I’m not sure whether they realise it. I think that Anders Breivik made a decision to kill because he believed it was “necessary” to make himself heard, and to achieve his political and social goals. Whilst that is not something that most of us (hopefully) would choose to do, let’s look at the problem the Norwegians face.

    Nelson Mandela made that same decision, and either committed, planned or was the leader for probably more callous acts of violence against “innocent” men, women and children. Car bombs, bombs in public places like restaurants, shopping malls, pubs etc. Bursting into a church and throwing hand-grenades and opening up with machine guns. Planting mines on farm roads to kill farmers and their families. Etc. He and his ANC party called it the “Soft Target” policy. He was jailed for 19 years, and then given the choice to condemn the bombing and stop it, or remain in prison for a further 8 years. He chose the latter.

    And when he was released around 1990 he was interviewed by the Talk Show host John Bishop, who asked him if he would at least condemn the “Soft Target” policy. Mandela’s face hardened, and he simply said: “In every war, people are killed in cross-fire”. And that was that. Now he is a world icon, loved and respected by the whole world (it seems). The Norwegians even gave him the Nobel Prize.

    So clearly, it’s not the wanton and random killing of unarmed civilian men, women and children that is the problem here. How can Anders Breivik be condemned for acts that don’t even sink to the level as those Mandela is responsible for, when Mandela is praised by all? At least Breivik went as far as describing his act as “atrocious”. Mandela refused to.

    Will Breivik get 19 years for his deeds? Would they let him free if after that time he still refused to stop any further attacks? Or would Norway also consider throwing him back inside for a further 8 years? And after that, would they consider this man for President of Norway?

    If Mandela and Breivik were confronted by the Americans, would they have arrested and jailed them…or shot them dead in cold blood to prevent them becoming folk heros?

    This is a crazy world, and full of contradictions. But I think that the Norwegians and the Left-wing Media have painted themselves into a corner, and it’s going to be messy getting out of it. In their judgement of Breivik, they need to consider that they previously have (perhaps inadvertently) created the Mandela Precedent, and will have to find a way to condemn Breivik, without (perhaps inadvertently) condemning Mandela.

  • Johnny Redd

    Norway are about to open a can of worms, but I’m not sure whether they realise it. I think that Anders Breivik made a decision to kill because he believed it was “necessary” to make himself heard, and to achieve his political and social goals. Whilst that is not something that most of us (hopefully) would choose to do, let’s look at the problem the Norwegians face.

    Nelson Mandela made that same decision, and either committed, planned or was the leader for probably more callous acts of violence against “innocent” men, women and children. Car bombs, bombs in public places like restaurants, shopping malls, pubs etc. Bursting into a church and throwing hand-grenades and opening up with machine guns. Planting mines on farm roads to kill farmers and their families. Etc. He and his ANC party called it the “Soft Target” policy. He was jailed for 19 years, and then given the choice to condemn the bombing and stop it, or remain in prison for a further 8 years. He chose the latter.

    And when he was released around 1990 he was interviewed by the Talk Show host John Bishop, who asked him if he would at least condemn the “Soft Target” policy. Mandela’s face hardened, and he simply said: “In every war, people are killed in cross-fire”. And that was that. Now he is a world icon, loved and respected by the whole world (it seems). The Norwegians even gave him the Nobel Prize.

    So clearly, it’s not the wanton and random killing of unarmed civilian men, women and children that is the problem here. How can Anders Breivik be condemned for acts that don’t even sink to the level as those Mandela is responsible for, when Mandela is praised by all? At least Breivik went as far as describing his act as “atrocious”. Mandela refused to.

    Will Breivik get 19 years for his deeds? Would they let him free if after that time he still refused to stop any further attacks? Or would Norway also consider throwing him back inside for a further 8 years? And after that, would they consider this man for President of Norway?

    If Mandela and Breivik were confronted by the Americans, would they have arrested and jailed them…or shot them dead in cold blood to prevent them becoming folk heros?

    This is a crazy world, and full of contradictions. But I think that the Norwegians and the Left-wing Media have painted themselves into a corner, and it’s going to be messy getting out of it. In their judgement of Breivik, they need to consider that they previously have (perhaps inadvertently) created the Mandela Precedent, and will have to find a way to condemn Breivik, without (perhaps inadvertently) condemning Mandela.

    • Ngoni_mbabvu

      The reason why Mandela is acclaimed is principally because he took up arms in pursuit of a just cause. The apartheid regime in essence persisted and made the large majority of citizens of South Africa  disenfranchised on the notion that black people are inherently inferior to white people. To compare Mandela to a gunman who shoots his fellow citizens in a free, democratic, non racial and just nation which Norway is acclaimed to be is, to say the least, dis-ingenious.

    • Ngoni_mbabvu

      The reason why Mandela is acclaimed is principally because he took up arms in pursuit of a just cause. The apartheid regime in essence persisted and made the large majority of citizens of South Africa  disenfranchised on the notion that black people are inherently inferior to white people. To compare Mandela to a gunman who shoots his fellow citizens in a free, democratic, non racial and just nation which Norway is acclaimed to be is, to say the least, dis-ingenious.

      • Sandman 1945

        just? why? because the government was white, and mandela black?, cause i don’t see anybody saying anything now that blacks are killing whites in africa, just so they can take their land

      • Sandman 1945

        just? why? because the government was white, and mandela black?, cause i don’t see anybody saying anything now that blacks are killing whites in africa, just so they can take their land

      • Johnny Redd

        That’s because you understand Apartheid from the perspective of the liberal media. For one, Separate Development is the word (Apartheid is the Afrikaans equivalent) so let’s use it to avoid the demonisation of the word Apartheid.

        “Large majority of citizens”? South Africa is populated by 11 Black tribes, none of which is indigenous. Some tribes arrived before White people and took the land from the indigenous people — the San. Others, like the Zulu (the most powerful of the Black tribes) arrived, in what is now South Africa, after White people had settled. It’s a land of settlers. Yes, each tribe, including the White people, contested the land. In truth it was no-one’s land, but that is true of every piece of land on this Earth.

        They were not disenfranchised. The areas which they had settled in were designated Homelands and they had any and every right they wished in those territories — even with financial aid. This is not the equivalent of an Indian Reservation. But they chose rather to live near the White cities and farms. That’s fine, but giving them a right to vote would mean the loss of our lands. They could exercise freedom in their own lands — to vote, build their own cities, define their own education systems. Was it selfish not to extend the benefits of our civilisation to a people that had tried to wipe us out when we did nothing more than they had done, which was to settle in that part of the continent? Perhaps, but it’s no more selfish than any other nation on this Earth.

        Prior to the destruction of the Boer Republics by the British (simply to steal our Gold and Diamond mines) and the subsequent unification of territories in South Africa, White foreigners flooded into the Republics to seek their fortune. They too were not allowed to vote, because they outnumbered the Boer. Selfish? Perhaps, but why should we lose control of our land just because we let others come in to seek their fortune?

        Lesotho and Swaziland were the two “success” stories in this “multi-state” solution — the rest just refused to make any effort to develop their territories. Instead, they launched an armed campaign for the right to take over the unified White controlled territories (unified by the British who, until the Boer won the election in 1948, also did not extend the vote to Black people).

        Please don’t equate our situation to a Native American Indian bombing Americans to get his land back. This is more like a Mexican launching a campaign to give Mexicans a right to pursue the American dream. But thereafter, to claim everything for themselves, including the right to rename the cities so that it looks like they actually were responsible for them, and demanding to run every business and institution as if it was their legacy.

        Perhaps you could argue that you would willingly have extended one-man one-vote to these people who had tried to wipe us out, and outnumbered us 10:1. But you have never been tested. America chose democracy…why not? When you outnumber an indigenous population it’s the smartest move. These people are not indigenous…and we had no sane reason to place ourselves in their hands. Until you came along.

      • Johnny Redd

        That’s because you understand Apartheid from the perspective of the liberal media. For one, Separate Development is the word (Apartheid is the Afrikaans equivalent) so let’s use it to avoid the demonisation of the word Apartheid.

        “Large majority of citizens”? South Africa is populated by 11 Black tribes, none of which is indigenous. Some tribes arrived before White people and took the land from the indigenous people — the San. Others, like the Zulu (the most powerful of the Black tribes) arrived, in what is now South Africa, after White people had settled. It’s a land of settlers. Yes, each tribe, including the White people, contested the land. In truth it was no-one’s land, but that is true of every piece of land on this Earth.

        They were not disenfranchised. The areas which they had settled in were designated Homelands and they had any and every right they wished in those territories — even with financial aid. This is not the equivalent of an Indian Reservation. But they chose rather to live near the White cities and farms. That’s fine, but giving them a right to vote would mean the loss of our lands. They could exercise freedom in their own lands — to vote, build their own cities, define their own education systems. Was it selfish not to extend the benefits of our civilisation to a people that had tried to wipe us out when we did nothing more than they had done, which was to settle in that part of the continent? Perhaps, but it’s no more selfish than any other nation on this Earth.

        Prior to the destruction of the Boer Republics by the British (simply to steal our Gold and Diamond mines) and the subsequent unification of territories in South Africa, White foreigners flooded into the Republics to seek their fortune. They too were not allowed to vote, because they outnumbered the Boer. Selfish? Perhaps, but why should we lose control of our land just because we let others come in to seek their fortune?

        Lesotho and Swaziland were the two “success” stories in this “multi-state” solution — the rest just refused to make any effort to develop their territories. Instead, they launched an armed campaign for the right to take over the unified White controlled territories (unified by the British who, until the Boer won the election in 1948, also did not extend the vote to Black people).

        Please don’t equate our situation to a Native American Indian bombing Americans to get his land back. This is more like a Mexican launching a campaign to give Mexicans a right to pursue the American dream. But thereafter, to claim everything for themselves, including the right to rename the cities so that it looks like they actually were responsible for them, and demanding to run every business and institution as if it was their legacy.

        Perhaps you could argue that you would willingly have extended one-man one-vote to these people who had tried to wipe us out, and outnumbered us 10:1. But you have never been tested. America chose democracy…why not? When you outnumber an indigenous population it’s the smartest move. These people are not indigenous…and we had no sane reason to place ourselves in their hands. Until you came along.

        • easy

          your knowledge on south african history is thorough and mostly correct, as well as your sentiments sound logic.

          any one who has a plight or cause to challenge, should immediately be deemed a radical. it is irrelevant what religion, creed or philosophy one follows, by associating yourself with like minded people who are willing to act on whatever cause, it should be deemed a threat to the freedom of individual thought.
          its easy to label any middle eastern muslim who takes us arms as a potential terrorist, but it is incredibly difficult to label said person as a freedom fighter. that doesn’t mix too well with our western set of ideals.

          so while mandela perpetrated acts of terrorism, to his mind it was 100% justified for the greater cause of black freedom of rights. Ngoni_mbabvu stated that mandela was fighting against white oppression (of course that is true), and that breivik killed his own people… but surely a white south african is still a south african! so ultimately there can be no distinction. a righteous murder is still murder Ngoni!

          what it all boils down to, is that social norms call for people to be placid and agreeable to widely accepted policies. if one strays from that path… you are a psychopathic terrorist.

          it is a very thin line, and a moot point; of course until your personal ideals have been impinged.

          • Patrik

            A large portion of Norwegians are NOT living in awful conditions deprived of the same freedoms that other Norwegians enjoy. The whole analogy with Nelson Mandela is totally wrong. Breivik is a mad psyco. As simple as that.

          • Johnny Redd

            Time will tell. What’s happening in London is a start. People are living in awful conditions and their frustrations are now explicit. You’re right, but your knowledge is incomplete. Black people had freedom in their homelands, but they chose to live near the cities and farms that we established. Yes there was a huge disparity, but no more than that which exists between countries like Norway, The Netherlands, Germany, France and the UK compared with Congo, DRC, Somalia, Zimbabwe etc. You’re quite happy to live with the disparity and just dish out a little “aid” every now and then. The 300 years of strife between the peoples here in Southern Africa gave us no incentive to share what we had achieved with the Black population — it had been the only reason we were able to survive. We allowed them to move into our territories in spite of the huge numbers because we were confident that we could allow them to live and work there but still retain our own freedoms and self-determination. The world decided otherwise.

            But to your credit, you certainly are allowing people to move into your territories, and you offer them all the same benefits. Well done, and I mean that. But right now they represent just a small percentage of your population. When the numbers reach parity — and they will — it will be interesting to see if your sentiments change. In time you will be in a minority in your own territories, and things may not turn out as well as you’d hoped. In 1990, White people held a referendum to end Apartheid and there was a 73% vote in favour of ending it. We thought that if things turned bad that the rest of the world would ensure our safety, and our rights. We were wrong. But this is not about us — we are living the reality of our decision (all due credit to you for the pressure on us). But our present is your future, with a certainty — unless you introduce Apartheid. But you won’t. So don’t ignore what’s happening in South Africa, there are a lot of lessons that you can learn to ensure a future for the children you will leave behind.

            The analogy is correct. It is simply a definition of “terrorism” — the indiscriminate, and willful murder of unarmed civilians to achieve a political/or social goal. Once again you demonstrate that that you have a different definition. You seem to believe that the indiscriminate, and willful murder of unarmed civilians to achieve a political/or social goal is okay if you can justify your cause. That’s your choice, but then you have to prove that Breivik’s cause is unjust. You can’t (according to your definition of terrorism) automatically condemn his means (even though he himself described it as atrocious) — you have to condemn his cause.

          • Patrik

            There is no need for me to reply to your wrong assumptions about my opinions, so I’ll just ignore that.

            Obviously the world is an unfair place to live in. Breivik had had a good and priveliged life, in comparison with most people on the planet. This makes his act even less possible to understand. Was that really the best he could do to further his cause? As most people understand he will have achieved nothing to further his cause, and will instead have damaged the cause he set out to help. His failure to draw this conclusion indicates that he has some sever personality disorder.

            Terrorism is a method. Most of the time it’s ineffective. I have never claimed that it is justifiable anywhere. It’s more comprehensible however when the perpetrator is severely oppressed, than part of a privileged society.

          • Johnny Redd

            Okay, I apologise if I have misinterpreted your views. You need to understand too that you make wrong assumptions too. I haven’t read Breivik’s manifesto, but the impression from what other people have said was that he was not motivated by his past or present life, but his concern about what the future held — so your assumptions are inaccurate. I’ve also mentioned in other posts on this page that he should  have found other ways to wage his “war” than killing defenseless people. I personally doubt that he made sufficient effort, but I know too little to condemn his cause. Terrorism should be something that we all agree is not an option — but that’s not what the UN and the African Union have decided. They have stated that there are instances where terrorism is an “act of liberation”. Who gets to decide? Tragically: the people who feel strongly that they have sufficient cause, can use this as justification.

        • Omalone1

          i value you insight. i have a text entitled “the history of south africa” which, thinking back on, do not recall of as actually providing the actual dates when the africans settled there,

          at the same time, as thorough as your knowledge may be, i may have to doubt your perspective

          i have, for instace, indulged in the likes of Steve Biko who outlines Bantu history, even prior to the arrival of the boers, who, initially settling as farmers, went on to dominate the native people. if you are going to doubt their indigenous capacity, i will have to reserve judgement, but contest the legitimacy of europeans settling in this land, clearly on another continent, and claiming it as their own, when i doubt that any one could come to europe and even dream of doing the same

          as for “seperate development”, you might to also indulge in the text”The African Liberation Reader: Volume 1, The Anatomy of Colonialism. in this, a catalogue of various contributions, one essays recalls that the land that the european rulers provided the africans with, was not rich in resources, and not even fairly distributed. africans went into the cities, as suggested, to pay their dues (taxes imposed upon them.) At the same time, if this situation was so fair, why were the europeans spared blushes when it came down to the passbooks.

          “the key to the technique of race rule is the total absolute exclusion of non-whites from participation in any aspect of government, whether legislative or executive… no african may sit as judge, magistrate or prosecutor, nor may he even serve on a jury…. humuliating ‘race’ tests have been inflicted on people, and families torn asunder in the registration of different races or sub-groups”(p 44)

          omalone1
          omalone1 is on youtube,

          • Tony Grant

            The “Indians” were allowed to be the “merchant class”?
            Historically was it not the “Jews” that were given the lowest calling “money lending”?
            Enjoyed your piece.

          • Johnny Redd

            Indians were indentured labourers — not indentured to the Boer. Perhaps to the British or other Indians in India who “sold” their services to recover their debts? I don’t know. I do know that Indians were offered free passage and money to return to India but chose to stay and bring their family members to South Africa during apartheid. I guess life under apartheid wasn’t that bad in comparison to life in India? But they certainly didn’t arrive with any illusions, or promises, that they were going to share the land. An Indian judge, in my presence, told our American host (we were at the University of Las Vegas) that “they” had planned to wipe out the Whites after the 1994 elections, but Mandela told them not to — so they didn’t. So, even they apparently have the indignation of “disenfranchised indigenous people”. But it gives you insight into why we thought apartheid was necessary. Ours was the generation born into apartheid, and that had to go through the painful process of dismantling it (with  due credit to the rest of the world for applying the pressure). But unfortunately, our children now have to relearn the lessons of our fathers.

            You’re dreaming about Jews being persecuted. They always were the wealthiest and most privileged class. In fact, it always surprised me that right-wing groups were anti-Jewish. It didn’t make sense since there was always this identity (perhaps superficially) with the Bible. It took a while to find out, that although it was the British who perpetrated the Anglo-Boer war, and the death of so many women and children in their Concentration Camps (through starvation and disease), that they believed it was the Jews who instigated the war. It wasn’t the British who ended up in control of the Gold and Diamond mines (the primary motive for the invasion), it was the Jewish community. “The Boer and the Black are good for nothing, except to dig up our gold and diamonds” is a quote from the wife of one of the most prominent mine owners. Even during apartheid the Boer did not own or control the gold and diamonds. To this day it remains in the same hands. If I’m wrong, I’d gladly accept correction.

          • Crudhouse

            Loved the clinical rehashing of white settlements and the servitude of indigenous people, how it all worked out, and how the media is ‘liberal’ and works against whites.

            Btw, I’m a Sri Lankan.  Our country had a population of 30 million in 1300AD and it was reduced to around 1 million in 1800AD after successive invasions from Europe.

            We only gained independence in the 50s and the British had implemented the divide and conquer rule where the minority (around 12%) Tamils were put to rule the Sinhalese majority (around 75%).

            We still suffer from this to this day, and you might have seen the headlines of the civil war here when the first government started implementing pro-majority laws to counteract the imbalance of power and wealth (artificially created by the British).

            When the war was going on Norway was the primary aid-giver to the terrorist group that took hold of the north and the east areas of the country.  It smuggled guns and ammunition in their vehicles to those areas whenever possible and ensured that the Sri Lankan army was confined to the barracks during their ‘mediation’, while the terrorists continued bombing and murdering people around the country.

            Now why would Muslims have a need to try to take over Europe?  I’ve lived in many Muslim states…Bangladesh, Pakistan, Malaysia & Egypt, and the people are very tolerant and accepting, though I can’t say the same about my stays in the US or Europe.

            There is a large Muslim minority in my country as well…and they co-exist with the other ethnic/religious groups in harmony (though they were pretty pro-bin Laden as they know the history of western inteference in the Middle Eastern Muslim lands, which continue to this day).

            It’s surprising how so many people don’t seem to understand how Muslim hate towards white people are just because of what they did and continue to do in the Middle East.  Western media is definitely not balanced, but you guys are mistaken about which way it’s skewed.

          • Johnny Redd

            Firstly…apologies to everyone else if this is a distraction from the topic

            Thanks for your reply too. The exact truth is difficult to ascertain, and I’m actually starting to research it myself. Most White people in South Africa know very little about their own history, except what they get from the liberal media. This is dangerous and tragic, because it’s edited to be politically correct. So we’ll hear about slavery and a big stink about the 8,000 or so slaves in South Africa around 1652 (although 80% ran away), but there will be no mention of the approximately 1 million White slaves in North Africa between 1500-1750. White people need to be brow-beaten, and balanced reporting is the enemy of political correctness.

            “The actual dates when the ” ‘Africans'[read central-Africans] settled there” is deliberately obscured by left-wing historians. They’d rather say: “such and such people left north-east Africa 1,500 years earlier”. They leave you to imagine those people arriving in the land not long after that, even if the slow migration took 1,600 years. It’s deceitful.

            But that being said, I have no doubt that some of the tribes were in this region before the Boer. But to call them “native” is misleading. The real native were either killed, evicted from the land and probably also simply assimilated (I am still researching that myself) by the people you are referring to as “native”. It makes me doubt your perspective too :-). No offence.

            Our fathers told us that we had moved into unoccupied territories. The Left Wing media and academics during apartheid told us that it was a lie. And unfortunately I was personally inclined to believe them. I have only found one estimate of how many Black people were in the region when we arrived — 100,000 (feel free to provide others). With an area of 1.22 million square kilometers that’s about one person per 12 square kilometers. For a people who didn’t have the wheel, and lived in and around the King’s residence, I’d guess they were more likely to inhabit about 100 square kilometres per tribe (there were at least 10) who kept their distance from each other (inter-tribal conflict). So about 100,000 square kilometres. That’s about 0.8% of the land. I’m doing my own research from now on.

            “contest the legitimacy of europeans settling in this land”…what about Arabs in the North? Do tribes from central Africa have automatic right to the south of the Continent? Do Mongolians have a right to China, India, Russia etc.? Why do you favour ownership by one group of peoples just because they come from the centre? Is it because we called them “Africans” after the continent? Does that confer ownership on the whole continent? Does India have the right of ownership to the Indian Ocean just because it was named after them? What about North and South Americans? What percentage of people on those continents are from “other continents”? 90%? More?

            What about all the Black peoples on the Islands? Mauritius, Carribean etc? Do they not have a right to be there because they’re originally from Africa?

            I think that the motivation for contesting the presence of White people in this part, or this content is racism. No?

            “i doubt that any one could come to europe and even dream of doing the same” ??? I’m surprised that you can make such a mistake. Come one. What do you think is motivating of Anders Breivik? You don’t know that the Muslims, for example, invaded Europe and occupied Spain for 700 years? Or raided coastal european cities to steal the 1 million or so slaves?

            I just don’t know whether the Homelands were inferior (in terms of quality of land), but I do know that White farmers had to give up beautiful farms in the Transkei (where Mandela was born) to give the land to that tribe. That land was amongst the best in the country. All of the farms were neglected and subsequently collapsed — it certainly wasn’t inferior land. You should verify your information (I will look into it more too).

            “Africans went into the cities, as suggested, to pay their dues (taxes imposed upon them)”…firstly, racism again implying that only people from central and north-east Africa are African. Tut tut. I doubt that very much. Black people in South Africa did NOT pay taxes, and we certainly didn’t tax their Homelands. The average wage amongst Black people in South Africa (don’t know the figures in their own Homelands) was three times higher than the average wage in the rest of Black African countries. Big disparity compared with White wages? Of course. What was the disparity between average wages in Britain, France, Germany and Holland compared with that in the other “free” Black African countries. Why should that “global norm” not be reflected in South Africa?

            “passbooks”…. what, you don’t require Visas and Passports to enter your country? White people hadn’t spent the last 300 years trying to wipe us out (except of course the British…couldn’t demand that of them since they ruled us).

            The rest of your stuff is also very emotive — no offence taken — but it is quoted out of context. Of course it sounds pitiful. But I compare it to what is happening to White people now, and I feel myself losing all sympathy.

        • Tony Grant

          If the answer to the problem is “continental” we Europeans have been part of most of the “displacement” of indigenous continental people’s?
          Just a fact of our evolution (we like to move) this too goes for the black people that have moved to inherit places like Australia…USA with Asiatics (origins) native American Indians!

          Even with conquests (San) indigenous people survive, maybe not the men but women and children…therefore, the roots of indigenous folk remain.

          Here in Australia many folk indentifing themselves as “Australian Aboriginal/indigenous” have very little of the heritage of remote (sorry) full bloods! Yet, wouldn’t be labelled as “whites” therefore, they have the “right” to take part in a “cultural system” that dates to much earier times.

          Dutch/English (euro’s) origins have killed millions of “indigenous folk” on our collective move into the world we viewed…as well as each-other!

          It’s the world we live in…

    • common sense

      Not the same thing at all you are mistaken in your appraisal on many counts, these killings were done in the name of hatred to promote the same there is no comparison here.

      • Johnny Redd

        Oh, okay. Maybe I should have tried some common sense? I guess if Breivik did it out of hatred, Mandela did it out of love? Others here suggest Breivik was motivated simultaneously by love and hate — ambivalence. Would you draw a comparison on ambivalence?

        • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

          One man’s love is another man’s hate.

          • Johnny Redd

            I guess so. And one man’s lie is another man’s truth :-). This incident in Norway just feels like a watershed moment in human history, like 911 was — and I just can’t make a call on how it will end. We had a “prophet” in 1914 predict the rise of black power in South Africa, and that we would lose our sovereignty once more (the British had just defeated us 12 years prior). An interesting “prophesy” that he made was that we would again attain a measure of sovereignty when two things happened.

            1. “When the ice started to melt”
            2. “With the rise of racism in Europe”

            True? I really don’t know. It’s just interesting.

          • Johnny Redd

            I guess so. And one man’s lie is another man’s truth :-). This incident in Norway just feels like a watershed moment in human history, like 911 was — and I just can’t make a call on how it will end. We had a “prophet” in 1914 predict the rise of black power in South Africa, and that we would lose our sovereignty once more (the British had just defeated us 12 years prior). An interesting “prophesy” that he made was that we would again attain a measure of sovereignty when two things happened.

            1. “When the ice started to melt”
            2. “With the rise of racism in Europe”

            True? I really don’t know. It’s just interesting.

          • Porpie9254

            9/11? Viewed Zeitgeist…believe there is a part two!

        • Red5

          Mandela’s actions were indeed motivated by love. Love for his people (the unfairly oppressed), love for freedom and dignity. He did not then and does not now hate white people, he did however, and I believe still hates injustice.  Hy fought a system, not a people.

          • Johnny Redd

            He’s had great PR…you really need to take some time to sift for the truth and not take things at face value. There are two sides to every story, and you clearly know only one.

            Just for the sake of making a point, allow me for a moment to play devil’s advocate.

            Isn’t Anders Breivik also motivated by love for his people? It wouldn’t surprise me if he sees Labour as traitors. They’re the ones letting people in through the back door. People that historically tried to destroy Europeans. Recently in England, Labour there were exposed for deliberately allowing/encouraging Muslims and people from other “third world countries” to enter the UK. Their motivation? Those people tend to vote Labour.

            Doesn’t every nation shoots it’s traitors? That’s a pretty crazy thought…but these are crazy times.

          • Patrik

            You can only be a traitor of the country if you go against a country’s decided laws.
            You can’t make up your own laws and decide that others are traitors. That’s lawlessness, also known as criminality. Breivik is a simple demented criminal.

          • barbara harman

            so if the Muslim invadors are destroying your country, killing, burning,raping and destroying your life and the governing elite allows it to happen because of some political agenda, you think it is OK??!!..if they changed the law suddenly and ask you to kill yourself, will you do it because this “law” says it is a crime to oppose it ??!!…

  • PRC

    …… i’ve been blocked???

  • PRC

    …… i’ve been blocked???

  • PRC

    …… i’ve been blocked???

    • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

      I don’t understand this comment. Who has blocked you? Certainly this comment appears. Did you have another that isn’t showing up?

  • World_Stage

    Someone at the top is playing this out on the world stage.  This is, IMHO, a way for the world’s governments to slowly – but surely turn over their sovereignty and self-governance to this top player through drastic social and policy changes.  Embracing Islam will not be enough.  The enemy speaks with the same tongue as we all do.  There must be a way to enable the leader of this “new” government to truly identify his followers, so that he can weed out those that are not true.  I am sure that this figure can implement fear on a global scale.  God help us all.

  • coincidence

    Mistakenly, this was posted in response to Alainke, but wasn’t in actuality a response to what he was saying.
    I had missed this NEW COMMENT box on my first go round…..

    Yesterday, the 24th, in the Houston Chronicle, an article about a science fiction writer caught my eye…
    “Andrea White visits 2083 in new science-fiction book”
    Is this just coincidence, or is the date 2083 of some significance?
    Her book isn’t titled 2083…that is the date she has set for some of her stories.

    I haven’t looked at the PDF yet, just glanced thru some of these posts.

  • Johnny Redd

    Why don’t you understand the point I was trying to make. It is that the world, and yourself apparently, have decided that it is not necessarily wrong to indiscriminately target unarmed civilian men, women and children with terror tactics, because there are circumstances in which it is acceptable. Is that clear? Personally I think that terror tactics are unacceptable, but you justify them — under certain circumstances.

    • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

      Please use the “reply” button so that comments are threaded and conversations have continuity.

      • Johnny Redd

        I was quiet sure I did that. I was surprised to see it pop up elsewhere.

        • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

          Oh well, who knows, but wanted to say something in case it wasn’t that way. Thanks for contributing to the conversation!

      • Johnny Redd

        I was quiet sure I did that. I was surprised to see it pop up elsewhere.

  • Maxkarnage
  • http://www.kevinislaughter.com/ Kevin I. Slaughter

    Please us the REPLY button at the bottom of a comment if you’re replying to that comment.

    No personal attacks against other commenters, no matter how retarded you may think they are, or how ugly their mother _must_ be.